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A.P.C Jeans... Where made? - Page 3

post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
Garment workers are pretty much the same everywhere. Poor, uneducated, and quick with a sewing machine. The wages suck everywhere and the differences in quality are usually due to the raw materials or the techniques used, not decisions on the part of the individual sewing machine operator or cutter.

i'd almost agree here. thinking about it, what makes japan so much different than USA? it's not like wages in japan for a denim worker is so much higher where they can truly appreciate the fruits of their labor. I'm sure the hand made peices are different, but for the general garments, I'd be surprised if all of the pieces were made by people who actually cared about the product they make. it's not as if japan is that different than america as far as jobs go. money still rules in japan, and what's the motivating factor in taking a job at a denim factory versus making millions in the business field in tokyo?
post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian SD
That's interesting, and believable. However, I think the image that people have when considering Studio D'Artisans and APC are that the Chinese making APC are people who are trying to make a buck, while the Japanese making the D'artis are artisans themselves and are "in it for the jeans," or some nonsense. The idea is that APCs are made in a factory, D'artis, Sams, 45rpms are made in a tailor shop.

Again, I'm not trying to validate the idea that made in Japan is inherently better than made in China, just clarifying the reasoning (how I see it) behind it.

this view is totally understandable, as I have views similar to this with regard to other induesties. I prefer German cars for example, because they have multiple race tracks and the autobahn for testing (which is a really abstract and very unsubstanciated reason). But his "leaves a bad taste in my mouth," like Macau is just some shit hole is just such an uncalled for blanket statement that I responded the way I did.

For the record, his reference was to Italian factories, not to Japanese tailor companies, but I do understand and totally agree with what you're saying.
post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by poly800rock
i'd almost agree here. thinking about it, what makes japan so much different than USA? it's not like wages in japan for a denim worker is so much higher where they can truly appreciate the fruits of their labor. I'm sure the hand made peices are different, but for the general garments, I'd be surprised if all of the pieces were made by people who actually cared about the product they make. it's not as if japan is that different than america as far as jobs go. money still rules in japan, and what's the motivating factor in taking a job at a denim factory versus making millions in the business field in tokyo?
If you want to understand why construction quality differs, compare the conditions in a Chinese or Mexican factory pumping out $40 Levi's to the conditions in an AA factory in LA to the conditions in an SDA shop and you pretty much have your answer. Cultural differences really have fuck all to do with it at this level, and they really only come into play in a modern capitalist nation like Japan when you're talking about consumer support for small, highly specialized artisan companies and people who found them. Enough with this ridiculous nonsense about Japanese workers "truly appreciating the fruits of their labors" while Chinese workers just aren't good enough.
post #34 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by quid
...But his "leaves a bad taste in my mouth," like Macau is just some shit hole is just such an uncalled for blanket statement that I responded the way I did.
"The tag reads 'Made in Macau'... Macau is a country [sic] in deep poverty. The citizens in that country will work for any wage... People are starving and helpless in Macau... they are on such low wages that there isn’t enough money to feed a family. Which creates child labor, in Macau where children are working at about 10 years old." http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/time4change Obviously not all of Macau is "just some shit hole" (they do have lovely casinos: http://www.sands.com.mo) but who can know for sure whether the factory where A.P.C. jeans are turned out by the thousands isn't a shit hole? "...Conditions in... factories... in Macau... [are] 'appalling', citing an investigation this year during which the group found factories... where more than 1,000 workers spent up to 16 hours a day at their work posts, seven days a week. In some cases, five hours' overtime yielded only a few cents' extra pay. Employees could be fined for lateness or for taking time off, while some had to pay a deposit when they took the job. In one factory this payment was only refundable after two years' employment. Workers were often paid several months late, or paid only a fraction of what was promised." (source: http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=17) "Workers from Macao contacted the Asia Monitor Resource Center in Hong Kong complaining of abusive treatment by factory managers, who forced them to work excessive overtime and cheated them out of their pay." (source: http://www.stanford.edu/group/SICD/Gap/gap.html) I could go on and on about why I'd rather buy jeans made in a Japanese artisanal workshop or an Italian factory than made in Macau by impoverished pre-teens... the conditions of factories in Macau (and China and other places around the world struggling desperately to emerge from the throes of poverty) are well documented: "workers were locked in the walled factory compound for all but a total of 60 minutes a day for meals", "workers are virtual captives... leave the neighborhood (where the factory is located) and you are arrested", "factory charges workers $15 a month for food and lodging in crowded dorms and pays them only $22 a month", "factory guards regularly punched and hit workers for talking back to managers or even for walking too fast", "The fine is $1 for taking too long in the bathroom. This is a lot considering... take home pay is less than $7 a month", "factory workers on average earned about 1/2 cent per hour", etc. etc. etc. (source: http://business.nmsu.edu/~dboje/nike...s_overview.htm) Sure sounds like a shit hole to me, huh quid (pro quo?) But for me it boils down to the fact that A.P.C. is a French company (Atelier de Production et de Création), and I prefer my French goods to be made in France. If they started making my Borrelli shirts or my Isaia suits or my Canali ties or my Lattanzi shoes in Macau, I'd stop buying them. But I can buy Studio d'Artisans or Sugar Canes or Prps or 45rpm or Iron Heart, etc. and know that they came from a Japanese company making Japanese jeans (from Japanese denim) in Japan. Call me a purist if you will... And I'm certainly not going to get on anyone's case for buying anything made in Macau - I think some of my t-shirts and underwear are made in Macau. I'll let the World Bank and all the various humanitarian groups and NGOs out there worry about global poverty reduction and the improvement of living standards around the world. I just want a pair of French jeans made in France, or a pair of Japanese jeans made in Japan. Is that too much to ask?
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arethusa
If you want to understand why construction quality differs, compare the conditions in a Chinese or Mexican factory pumping out $40 Levi's to the conditions in an AA factory in LA to the conditions in an SDA shop and you pretty much have your answer.

Cultural differences really have fuck all to do with it at this level, and they really only come into play in a modern capitalist nation like Japan when you're talking about consumer support for small, highly specialized artisan companies and people who found them. Enough with this ridiculous nonsense about Japanese workers "truly appreciating the fruits of their labors" while Chinese workers just aren't good enough.


before we all get carried away with this SDA tailor shop concept, does this really exist?

and also, i don't think AA factories other than treating their employees nicely have much effect on product quality. I've had more AA shirt rip, tear, and just disintergrate in front of me than my shitty $40 pair of levi's. so there still has to be some emphasis on origins of raw goods.
post #36 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by poly800rock
before we all get carried away with this SDA tailor shop concept, does this really exist?

I think a field trip is in order. First we fly to Macau and take the A.P.C. factory tour during the day, followed by gambling at night, then we hop over to Japan for the SDA "behind the scenes" tour during the day, Roppongi and Shinjuku at night (wearing our new jeans, of course!)
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by amerikajinda
I think a field trip is in order. First we fly to Macau and take the A.P.C. factory tour during the day, followed by gambling at night, then we hop over to Japan for the SDA "behind the scenes" tour during the day, Roppongi and Shinjuku at night (wearing our new jeans, of course!)

Since when is Macau a country? I'd be a lot more concerned about the quality of the product you're buying, and a lot less concerned about where they are from, if you're concerned specifically with the durability and appearance of your stuff. Yes Japanese repros will probably have the highest level of quality, but you're also paying for it.
post #38 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drizzt3117
Since when is Macau a country? I'd be a lot more concerned about the quality of the product you're buying, and a lot less concerned about where they are from, if you're concerned specifically with the durability and appearance of your stuff. Yes Japanese repros will probably have the highest level of quality, but you're also paying for it.
You're absolutely right - I was quoting from a website that contained a factual error (an Internet first, no doubt). As we all know, Macau is one of two special administrative regions of the People's Republic of China (the second being Hong Kong). And I also agree that country of origin isn't as important as durability and appearance. Heck, I might just go out and get some A.P.C.'s and not worry about whether they were made in France or Macau or Tunisia... after all, they're nice jeans and relatively inexpensive.
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by poly800rock
before we all get carried away with this SDA tailor shop concept, does this really exist?

Actually I was just fabricating it as an ideal that we, as foreigners and interested in an extremely high end product probably create when we hear a name like Studio D'artisan. I agree with Max and Arethusa, I think it's extremely likely that the workers for Canes, 45rpm, SD'A, etc. are no more "specialized" than those for APC or even Levis. I don't know for sure, and to be honest I doubt I'd ever investigate. I'd rather just plug my ears, go "la la la la my jeans were made by an old japanes karate master man who loves denim more than his wife or his dick." Obviously there are some special parts like felled seams but that can be done by anyone it's just time-consuming, and there are some hand-made pieces which are probably made in-house. The denim itself comes from the "artisinal workshop" as I put it... that's the stuff that's hand-dyed and loved for, and that's why 45rpms cost so damn much.

I think it's highly likely the workers in the Japanese factories are Chinese, even. Again don't jump down my throat and call me a racist I'm just pointing out a likely fact, not claiming that Chinese workers are somehow worse.
post #40 of 54
Thread Starter 
This is one reason why I prefer Japanese-made jeans to jeans made in, oh I don't know - let's just say Macau:

"Take the legendary Kato Jeans designed by Hiroshi Kato, who draws all his ideas in a sketchbook and takes them to a tiny downtown factory. He then sits down with the supervisor to give minute instructions on exactly what he is aiming for... A pair of Kato Jeans is hand-crafted and marvelously detailed - even the thread on the pockets is dyed to his specifications.

Mizra, also manufactured in Kyoto, combines craftsmanship, eco-friendliness and retro-Japanese motifs. The brand's designer, Yoshiyuki Iwagishi, says that the process of creation is more important than anything else and that 'torturing and killing' himself over a silhouette or a particular fit is second nature.

Mizra jeans are distinguished by a slim, elegant leg line; the antique kimono fragments used on the pockets and hems; and Iwagishi's use of traditional Japanese dyes, made from soy beans and wood charcoal, for example. No two Mizra jeans are the same because every pair is finished by hand.

After Kyoto, hard-core denim fans head west to Okayama Prefecture, the official pilgrimage site for artisanal jeans lovers.

Long known for its dye and indigo industry, Okayama is home to more than 100 family-owned factories that serve Japan's designers and such European brands like Dior Homme and Dolce and Gabbana.

Most Japanese jeans designers swear by Okayama indigo: a deep, ocean-blue shade. Most of the work in these factories is still done by hand and follow methods that are centuries-old.

Kapital started out in Okayama in 1995 and is now said to have the truest, deepest shade of blue, with understated designs that fashion critics say show a reverence for denim.

These days, Japanese denim faithful will own one pair of a mainstream jeans company, one pair of a foreign brand and one pair stitched to perfection by a relatively unknown artisan/designer.

At a shop called Garage, meanwhile, things have evolved beyond the simple act of selling and buying. Garage is owned by a young couple who open the shop - which combines the store, the manufacturing room and the living quarters - only for several days a month. They did not want their names to be used, saying they prefer to remain inconspicuous and have the focus be the product.

Their jeans, called 'Cracker,' are displayed on the ground floor. People can come in and try them on but no one buys a thing until the wearer and the designer look long and hard at the mirror to decide whether a particular pair fits like a charm.

If anything is amiss, in the designer's eyes, the potential buyer is politely discouraged: Sorry, no deal. One customer described the experience: "It's like unrequited love. I'm heartbroken."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/...rts/Rjeans.php
post #41 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian SD
I'd rather just plug my ears, go "la la la la my jeans were made by an old japanes karate master man who loves denim more than his wife or his dick."

Me too.

But, my family has bought boots from another family, a family of bootmakers (serendipitous dontchyathink), for close to 100 years. They've never had more than three-four people working there at any one time for as long as I can remember. It's really fucking cool to walk into a shop with a pair of 80 year old boots and have the great-grandson of the guy who made them, repair them. Actually, it's also really cool to see his kid is now running the clicker.

I hold out hope that I'm buying my jeans from a similar family operation in Japan.
post #42 of 54
Quote:
But for me it boils down to the fact that A.P.C. is a French company (Atelier de Production et de Création), and I prefer my French goods to be made in France. If they started making my Borrelli shirts or my Isaia suits or my Canali ties or my Lattanzi shoes in Macau, I'd stop buying them. But I can buy Studio d'Artisans or Sugar Canes or Prps or 45rpm or Iron Heart, etc. and know that they came from a Japanese company making Japanese jeans (from Japanese denim) in Japan. Call me a purist if you will... And I'm certainly not going to get on anyone's case for buying anything made in Macau - I think some of my t-shirts and underwear are made in Macau. I'll let the World Bank and all the various humanitarian groups and NGOs out there worry about global poverty reduction and the improvement of living standards around the world. I just want a pair of French jeans made in France, or a pair of Japanese jeans made in Japan. Is that too much to ask?
all of that i agree with entirely. 100% in agreement. But. I never debated the fact that Macau has some rough situations, or bad labour norms. I just think "it leaves a bad taste in your mouth" is uncalled for, because their conditions have no effect on your daily life. If you were one of the employeed in one of the factories, then it could leave a bad taste in your mouth. Or your relatives live there, or youve visited. I always assumed APC was made in France because the French are so into their fashoin, so I was a little suprised by made in Macau, but it doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth, like I'm so much better than the people making the clothes. I think its a really disgusting way to say that you would rather support a French production facility producing French garments. I guess it just reminded me of a King referring to peasants, like everything about "those people" is disgusting and you cant even bear to say it. Those PEASANTS disgust you. Thats the way it played out in my head. On the quality issue, and wanting to support certain companies because of their manufacturing practices, I agree with you. I absolutly dont buy things because of where the production is, and I am usually very concious of the clothes I wear.
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Danger
Me too.

But, my family has bought boots from another family, a family of bootmakers (serendipitous dontchyathink), for close to 100 years. They've never had more than three-four people working there at any one time for as long as I can remember. It's really fucking cool to walk into a shop with a pair of 80 year old boots and have the great-grandson of the guy who made them, repair them. Actually, it's also really cool to see his kid is now running the clicker.

I hold out hope that I'm buying my jeans from a similar family operation in Japan.

you'd have a better chance with 45rpm than let's say samurai.
post #44 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by quid
I just think "it leaves a bad taste in your mouth" is uncalled for, because their conditions have no effect on your daily life. If you were one of the employeed in one of the factories, then it could leave a bad taste in your mouth. Or your relatives live there, or youve visited. I always assumed APC was made in France because the French are so into their fashoin, so I was a little suprised by made in Macau, but it doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Well I should apologize for not being clear and explain what I really meant when I said it left a bad taste in my mouth. I just meant that I felt mislead to find out that a French company whose jeans sell for more than $100 were being produced in Macau for a slight fraction of that amount. It didn't leave a bad taste in my mouth simply because they were made in Macau; rather, it was a combination of the French name and the high price tag coupled with the fact that they're made in Macau. To further clarify, it wouldn't have left a bad taste in my mouth if I had found out that a pair of Gap or Banana Republic jeans selling for $40 were made in Macau. So what makes A.P.C. jeans cost/worth $100 more than other jeans made in Macau? Is it the quality of the denim? Are the French owners of A.P.C. pulling in over $100 for every pair of jeans they sell, all other costs (advertising, design, materials, management, etc.) included? I'd love to know the profit margins... If I hadn't asked the question of where they're made, I also (like you) would have continued to assume that APC were made in France. Rest assured, I have nothing against the citizens of Macau personally. I guess what it comes down to is the bottom line... i.e., cost. The other day I happened across a Zegna pullover on sale for only $25 at Filene's Basement, and was all set to buy it until I saw the "Made in China" tag... (I also have nothing against the citizens of China). It also left a bad taste in my mouth that Zegna has cheapened itself so much that some of their products are now being made in China. I'm not against a company trying to maximize profits by having their goods produced for the cheapest prices possible, but there is a definite trade-off in the eyes of discriminating consumers who know that "Made in Macau" is not exactly synonymous with "quality". If a Louis Vuitton product sports a "Made in Macau" or "Made in China" or "Made in Hong Kong" tag, then is it still a Louis Vuitton? No - it's a counterfeit. (which begs the question -- where are counterfeit A.P.C. jeans made? France?) So I'll buy a pair of A.P.C.'s for $140 knowing that they were made in Macau because I support the developing world, but I'll also buy a pair of $800 45rpms -- because I support the arts.
post #45 of 54
Amerikajinda I understand your argument, but I'd wager that Zegna, Louis Vuitton, etc. are probably made in China, Macau, HK, Indonesia, etc. but finished in Italy or France. Kind of a sad reality, IMO.

But anyway, bottom line is that APC's denim is (last I heard) Japanese. And it's all quality, regardless. THe only deterring factor from APCs for me is that I've seen them a million gajillion times on the Post Pics/WAYWT. So far I'm the only one posting pictures of worn-out 5EPs and they're certainly unlike the others in their color. This allows me to stroke my ePeen at night. And my jeans.
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