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post #2596 of 5371

I replied earlier with my smart phone but the reply got mixed into what you wrote:

 

The problem really has to do with who the mtm supplier is or uses. Mtm can be a blessing or a curse because if what is expected gets delivered then great a blessing. If you screw it up...and its easy to screw up....then you don't get what u expect and its worse than rtw. Maybe I should write an article on how to select a good mtm supplier since there are so many.
Anyway, the shirt is too big on you. All of your posture elements that ideally dictate how the pattern should be cut may not have been taken into consideration completely which is where those odd wrinkles come into play. Shrinkage? Yes and no. Good tightly woven cotton will not shrink much. Maybe 3-5%? Also, did the darts come sewn in like that? There's no reason for darts on a mtm shirt and they don't even fix the fit. It looks like an oversized express shirt. It can be altered. I'd rip those darts out, take it in thru the sleeves and sides. When I dart those HUGE rtw shirts I dart them right next to the side seam so u can barely see them. Who wants to wear a woman's blouse?
Ultimately the problem is a breakdown somewhere between the mtm reseller agent and the maker. Probably on behalf of the seller. My guess of course...
Next time you go to an mtm supplier/agent, make sure they account for every element of your posture as possible. It can be so many things that ultimately affect the way the pattern is cut but if they're all accounted for as closely as possible along with accurate measurements then your garment may only be off SLIGHTLY at which point you identify the little areas that need to be fixed for the next round and evolve through the process. I believe jefferyd talked about this in his blog about how roughly only 5% of the population wearing tailored clothes has a near perfect fit and it's all because of proper ongoing collaboration/communication between client and cutter (seller in this case).

Lastly, if you really want your clothes to fit the best, do some homework on your own to determine what type of posture you've got in every area of your body. Have someone take pics of you wearing a tighter tshirt and boxers in front back side relaxed poses. Study your body. What do you see? Take it to a GOOD tailor and ask him/her what is going on. If you know your posture and you go to an mtm supplier and they don't account for something, then you know they're either untrained, careless, or in a hurry for that commission check. An informed client has a better shot at preventing this than an uninformed client.

post #2597 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despos View Post


Please don't post or reply from your smart phone anymore! smile.gif

Actually I enjoy reading your posts, you are very articulate and actually understand the conceptual side of things. Your contributions are bringing new perspective and life to the thread.
Good job!

I'll remember this biggrin.gif

And thank you for the compliments. It's good to receive them and have confirmation that I'm on the right track.

post #2598 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by coupas View Post

This is a very interesting thread and I would like your take on a recent purchase.

 

I'ts a low cost suit purchased from TM Lewin, this is the suit. It's cheap and I took a chance as I usually can fit into OTC-suits quite good.
http://www.tmlewin.co.uk/Cushing-Slim-Fit-2-Button-Grey-Check-Suit/45221B,en_GB,pd.html?start=5&cgid=Mens-Suits&prefn1=Suit_Fit&prefv1=Sackville


I recieved it today and promptly unpacked it and put it on:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would it even be possible for a tailor to save it, or should I return it?

 

Thanks in advance for your take on this. I really appreciate getting second opinions from well versed guys like yourselfs.

 

/Coupas

You're very full in the chest and blades with a somewhat hunched over posture. You need extra room in the chest and across your shoulder blades. Adjust for pitched shoulders isn't something a RTW maker will ever do. The crosswise wrinkles across the upper back, the shoulder divots, the pulling on the front button towards the chest, and the gaping of the fronts at the second button all indicate this. This is a fairly lethal combination to any suit if you're looking for a 'near perfect fit' esp RTW. You could return it and see if they offer a more "classic" fit and get it brought in. Don't think it would change the shoulder measurements but it'd give you a little more ease all over. Always better to get a suit with a little more wearing room brought in than one that is too slim.

post #2599 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTCtailor View Post

I replied earlier with my smart phone but the reply got mixed into what you wrote:

 

The problem really has to do with who the mtm supplier is or uses. Mtm can be a blessing or a curse because if what is expected gets delivered then great a blessing. If you screw it up...and its easy to screw up....then you don't get what u expect and its worse than rtw. Maybe I should write an article on how to select a good mtm supplier since there are so many.
Anyway, the shirt is too big on you. All of your posture elements that ideally dictate how the pattern should be cut may not have been taken into consideration completely which is where those odd wrinkles come into play. Shrinkage? Yes and no. Good tightly woven cotton will not shrink much. Maybe 3-5%? Also, did the darts come sewn in like that? There's no reason for darts on a mtm shirt and they don't even fix the fit. It looks like an oversized express shirt. It can be altered. I'd rip those darts out, take it in thru the sleeves and sides. When I dart those HUGE rtw shirts I dart them right next to the side seam so u can barely see them. Who wants to wear a woman's blouse?
Ultimately the problem is a breakdown somewhere between the mtm reseller agent and the maker. Probably on behalf of the seller. My guess of course...
Next time you go to an mtm supplier/agent, make sure they account for every element of your posture as possible. It can be so many things that ultimately affect the way the pattern is cut but if they're all accounted for as closely as possible along with accurate measurements then your garment may only be off SLIGHTLY at which point you identify the little areas that need to be fixed for the next round and evolve through the process. I believe jefferyd talked about this in his blog about how roughly only 5% of the population wearing tailored clothes has a near perfect fit and it's all because of proper ongoing collaboration/communication between client and cutter (seller in this case).

Lastly, if you really want your clothes to fit the best, do some homework on your own to determine what type of posture you've got in every area of your body. Have someone take pics of you wearing a tighter tshirt and boxers in front back side relaxed poses. Study your body. What do you see? Take it to a GOOD tailor and ask him/her what is going on. If you know your posture and you go to an mtm supplier and they don't account for something, then you know they're either untrained, careless, or in a hurry for that commission check. An informed client has a better shot at preventing this than an uninformed client.

 

Thank you very much!

 

Those shirts were not cheap ($100 + each) and they took a lot of time for measuring etc., that is two reasons why I expected a well fitting shirt and am so dissappointed now. There were already 2 alterations made with several things I had to point out, one was to shorten the sleeves properly, but as you can see the sleeves are still too long. Of course it is about communication, but if one side doesn't listen, what's the use?

 

Because I'm an amateur with regard to tailoring I expect a tailor to tell me what has to be done. With this tailor/seller I have to tell them what has to be done because they would never suggest anything, they would only do what I tell them (which is not much because I'm an amateur...) and from the first moment of trying on the shirts I had the feeling they don't want to put any more work into them and just get me out of the shop asap (and even worse the two suits they made! I'll post the pictures of those when I am in a really good mood so I'll write in a calm and objective way).

 

I also asked them every time to take away more of the fabric because it's too much, on the pictures you see the results. They keep telling me I need the fabric in order to be able to move. With the information you are giving me I'll go there for a thrid (probably last) time and ask them to amend it again.

 

I'm not sure what you mean with darts? I only know darts at trousers, do you mean the two "thingies" at the back? Yes they came that way...

 

What do you think about the drape/draping of the shirt? Is that going to get better after several times of washing/cutting away more of the fabric? And what about the wrinkling on the shoulder? I also asked them to take care of that, you see the results on the pitcures...What can I tell them to do about it? "All of your posture elements that ideally dictate how the pattern should be cut may not have been taken into consideration completely which is where those odd wrinkles come into play.

 

Not much I guess?

 

Thanks again!

post #2600 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedBaxter View Post

 

Thank you very much!

 

Those shirts were not cheap ($100 + each) and they took a lot of time for measuring etc., that is two reasons why I expected a well fitting shirt and am so dissappointed now. There were already 2 alterations made with several things I had to point out, one was to shorten the sleeves properly, but as you can see the sleeves are still too long. Of course it is about communication, but if one side doesn't listen, what's the use?

 

Because I'm an amateur with regard to tailoring I expect a tailor to tell me what has to be done. With this tailor/seller I have to tell them what has to be done because they would never suggest anything, they would only do what I tell them (which is not much because I'm an amateur...) and from the first moment of trying on the shirts I had the feeling they don't want to put any more work into them and just get me out of the shop asap (and even worse the two suits they made! I'll post the pictures of those when I am in a really good mood so I'll write in a calm and objective way).

 

I also asked them every time to take away more of the fabric because it's too much, on the pictures you see the results. They keep telling me I need the fabric in order to be able to move. With the information you are giving me I'll go there for a thrid (probably last) time and ask them to amend it again.

 

I'm not sure what you mean with darts? I only know darts at trousers, do you mean the two "thingies" at the back? Yes they came that way...

 

What do you think about the drape/draping of the shirt? Is that going to get better after several times of washing/cutting away more of the fabric? And what about the wrinkling on the shoulder? I also asked them to take care of that, you see the results on the pitcures...What can I tell them to do about it? "All of your posture elements that ideally dictate how the pattern should be cut may not have been taken into consideration completely which is where those odd wrinkles come into play.

 

Not much I guess?

 

Thanks again!

I'm sorry to hear that you're dealing with that kind of service out there. When altering a shirt, the only things that are really possible are taking them in thru the sides and/or adding darts ("thingies") in the back (Again, you usually see those in either ladies' blouses or altered RTW shirt. I've never seen an MTM shirt come back with shaped darts in the back that still doesn't fit.), shortening or sometimes lengthening the sleeve, and MAYBE altering the shoulder by narrowing. Because of the way a shirt is constructed with a yoke instead of simply a forepart and back part, it's very hard to change the cut of the shoulder line. Not to mention, a dress shirt has less flexibility for visual errors. There's a lot of little visual things you can hide in a suit. Hand sewing the collar on, for instance, in a suit is no big deal because it's hidden. In a shirt, you see any and every mistake. That makes them very labor intensive

The wrinkles that are around your neck/shoulders are a result of your body posture and the cut of the shirt not matching. It's almost too much to describe.

Have you ever put a tshirt on backwards and not noticed right away? In a few minutes or maybe hours, you feel yourself fighting the tshirt in the neck and shoulders. It just feels off. Well, it is off because it's backwards and it's not cut to fit the same way both ways. That's kinda like what you're dealing with. The shirt isn't exactly cut for your posture. Take this with a grain of salt, but I'm guessing it may have even been made for someone else. The darts are a huge giveaway there. There is simply no functional reason to have them there. They're visually unappealing and the fit is still wildly drapey in the back. 

Combine that with the tailor/seller's refusal to listen to you or suggest things, I can understand your frustration. There is definitely a middle ground that any professional in this field should strive to hit. Not too suggestive, not too passive letting the client make all the uninformed decisions. It's not always easy. However, FIT IS FIT. Fit isn't exactly as flexible as style. Granted, there are styles of fit, but "doesn't fit" is not a fit style.

So what do you do from here? Again, not an easy thing to advise on...not always so cut and dry.

If they're anything like my business, they've got no return policies and additional alterations are simply eating away at their bottom line. The fact is, in this business, you either get it right the first time or you lose money. I've had my fair share of mistakes that I've had to correct and I've eaten my profit on a few occasions, but thankfully nothing so extreme that I forever lost clients. I'm a customer-centric business owner. I'd do it this way no matter what kindof business I own. Sounds like you're dealing with someone who may operate a little differently, to put it nicely.

 

More fabric can come out of the back and waist area, whether it be thru the sides or by increasing those darts. The sleeve fit can be improved, too. In width and in length.They're not hard alterations, but do they want to do the work??? These are "hard economic times" and some business owners are very steadfast on maintaining profit.

Will the fabric change as you get them cleaned? Yes, but not a lot if it's good cotton. You should have enough shirts that dry cleaning isn't a constant thing, anyway.

Fixing the neck and shoulder areas that are causing you fit problems are definitely more complicated and my guess is not possible with that tailor.

 

Robert Kiyosaki tells people that the #1 key to increasing their wealth is to increase their financial education.

In the same regard, the #1 key to increasing quality of fit/style in your wardrobe is to increase your clothing education.

I think that's the fundamental goal of this forum.

post #2601 of 5371
*Please note that I won this suit in a NCAA bracket contest, it is a H. Freeman custom made suit. So, if there are flaws, I'm don't really care since it was free!

I know the pants are too long, and I'm not pleased with the structure of the shoulders, but am curious to hear a quality tailors thoughts.

The tailor at the mens shop I was at is very old fashioned. I would never use him normally, but the alterations were free since I won the suit. He has refused to do several alterations for a friend and I (waist suppression, sleeve alterations, etc) But, otherwise seems competent to my untrained eye.






post #2602 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles_ View Post

*Please note that I won this suit in a NCAA bracket contest, it is a H. Freeman custom made suit. So, if there are flaws, I'm don't really care since it was free!

I know the pants are too long, and I'm not pleased with the structure of the shoulders, but am curious to hear a quality tailors thoughts.

The tailor at the mens shop I was at is very old fashioned. I would never use him normally, but the alterations were free since I won the suit. He has refused to do several alterations for a friend and I (waist suppression, sleeve alterations, etc) But, otherwise seems competent to my untrained eye.






I think the most obvious is that the sleeves are a touch too long. Maybe 1/4"? What about the shoulders don't you like?  Looks like a natural well-padded American shoulder. I've got some older hickey freeman's that are built the same way. Otherwise, the back of the jacket could be cleaned up a bit more in the upper back. Not easy to tell what exactly is going on there.

Only other thing is a little bit of fullness in the crotch and even more in the stride...possibly the seat is loose, too. Maybe even a little too long. My personal preference is for a slightly slimmer and cleaner trouser leg.

Why won't the tailor do the alterations?

post #2603 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTCtailor View Post

I think the most obvious is that the sleeves are a touch too long. Maybe 1/4"? What about the shoulders don't you like?  Looks like a natural well-padded American shoulder. I've got some older hickey freeman's that are built the same way. Otherwise, the back of the jacket could be cleaned up a bit more in the upper back. Not easy to tell what exactly is going on there.
Only other thing is a little bit of fullness in the crotch and even more in the stride...possibly the seat is loose, too. Maybe even a little too long. My personal preference is for a slightly slimmer and cleaner trouser leg.
Why won't the tailor do the alterations?

Thank you for the assessment!

These pictures don't show it, but there is a tiny bit of bunching in the shoulder when I look in the mirror (a little bump towards the end) The shoulders have almost no padding, it's not unstructured, but has very little compared to to my zegna coats, maybe comparable to my Isaia coats.

I asked to show around 1/4 inch of shirt sleeve when I first got the suit, and the chalk line he made was at the correct place. Not sure why it changed when he did the alterations. The tailor and salesman both prefer a traditional look, longer pants, longer jacket, more loose fitting in general. So, I assume they won't do the alterations since they think the more "trad" look is better. I have another tailor that does all my other clothes and he does an amazing job. He regularly works with Samuelsohn, Canali, and other Italian brands, so he knows how to work with a slimmer fit.


The pants are a whole different story. I have a fractured L3 vertebrate, and since then my thighs/backside have shrunk a little bit. I was around 10 lbs heavier when I had my first fitting, so this could be the issue. I should also add that I have a big backside, (I blame football and power-lifting laugh.gif ) so, almost every pair of pants looks odd on me.
post #2604 of 5371

Thanks again OTCtailor!

 

Lets see if I can make them to provide a proper shirt at last...
 

post #2605 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles_ View Post


Thank you for the assessment!

These pictures don't show it, but there is a tiny bit of bunching in the shoulder when I look in the mirror (a little bump towards the end) The shoulders have almost no padding, it's not unstructured, but has very little compared to to my zegna coats, maybe comparable to my Isaia coats.

I asked to show around 1/4 inch of shirt sleeve when I first got the suit, and the chalk line he made was at the correct place. Not sure why it changed when he did the alterations. The tailor and salesman both prefer a traditional look, longer pants, longer jacket, more loose fitting in general. So, I assume they won't do the alterations since they think the more "trad" look is better. I have another tailor that does all my other clothes and he does an amazing job. He regularly works with Samuelsohn, Canali, and other Italian brands, so he knows how to work with a slimmer fit.


The pants are a whole different story. I have a fractured L3 vertebrate, and since then my thighs/backside have shrunk a little bit. I was around 10 lbs heavier when I had my first fitting, so this could be the issue. I should also add that I have a big backside, (I blame football and power-lifting laugh.gif ) so, almost every pair of pants looks odd on me.

Bump on the shoulder could be slight tightness in the chest. The lapels were forming a slight U shape instead of a nice V. It wasn't pulling at the button but that pulling can create the classic shoulder divot which may be what you're referring to. Regarding the sleeves....I've got manuals on doing alterations that actually suggest sewing "soft" to your markings etc. I think what that translates to overtime is a habit on part of some tailors to kindof pad every measurement or marking they take. I.e. sleeves a tad longer, pants a tad longer, things not as suppressed as they were pinned during a fitting etc.

I used to play rugby when I was in college and I got into powerlifting as well. Because of that, I have a prominent seat and front thigs but my hamstrings are almost non existent it seems. I have to do all kinds of alterations to get pants to fit at the seat while still maintaining a sharply tapered to straight trim leg. I can sympathize.

post #2606 of 5371



Tailors:

 

A question about fit of pants. This effect from the side seems to be common to every pair of trouser I own including higher end trouser makers. Is this problem pervasive with OTR, namely the absence of a nice line in the back. Is it just a matter of posture? For I find that if I lean forward a bit, I can get that straight line. Can this be fixed in OTR pants reasonably simply? And how good must the tailor be to do so?

 

The cuff measurement is 8.25 so not too skinny. I'm a 33 waist. This is a slim fit pant.

 

BTW: I wonder if there is still too much cuff showing or if this is within norm, though on the "forward" side?

 

700


Edited by TweedyProf - 1/15/13 at 3:34pm
post #2607 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedBaxter View Post

Thank you very much!

Those shirts were not cheap ($100 + each) and they took a lot of time for measuring etc., that is two reasons why I expected a well fitting shirt and am so dissappointed now. There were already 2 alterations made with several things I had to point out, one was to shorten the sleeves properly, but as you can see the sleeves are still too long. Of course it is about communication, but if one side doesn't listen, what's the use?

Because I'm an amateur with regard to tailoring I expect a tailor to tell me what has to be done. With this tailor/seller I have to tell them what has to be done because they would never suggest anything, they would only do what I tell them (which is not much because I'm an amateur...) and from the first moment of trying on the shirts I had the feeling they don't want to put any more work into them and just get me out of the shop asap (and even worse the two suits they made! I'll post the pictures of those when I am in a really good mood so I'll write in a calm and objective way).

I also asked them every time to take away more of the fabric because it's too much, on the pictures you see the results. They keep telling me I need the fabric in order to be able to move. With the information you are giving me I'll go there for a thrid (probably last) time and ask them to amend it again.

I'm not sure what you mean with darts? I only know darts at trousers, do you mean the two "thingies" at the back? Yes they came that way...

What do you think about the drape/draping of the shirt? Is that going to get better after several times of washing/cutting away more of the fabric? And what about the wrinkling on the shoulder? I also asked them to take care of that, you see the results on the pitcures...What can I tell them to do about it? "All of your posture elements that ideally dictate how the pattern should be cut may not have been taken into consideration completely which is where those odd wrinkles come into play.


Not much I guess?


Thanks again!

Ted
this is not the worst fitting shirt i have ever seen.
the darts are not an issue.
I use them all the time.
it gives a cleaner look when you want to reduce the fullness.

the sleeves are a touch long and a little full..
there is a problem fitting your shoulders.
this is a very common problem today.
some MTM companies have not adjusted their patterns properly for how young men are built today.
the collar seems fine.
I don't have an answer on what should be done by the vendor.
but again.
I have seen a lot worse!
post #2608 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles_ View Post

The tailor and salesman both prefer a traditional look, longer pants, longer jacket, more loose fitting in general. So, I assume they won't do the alterations since they think the more "trad" look is better.

There is nothing trad about too-long sleeves and pants. Unless there's no other option, go to another tailor who won't fight you on choices which should be utterly uncontroversial.
post #2609 of 5371

Gentlemen, after the failed attempt with Indochino, I went to Suitsupply and tried their MTM program. This is the outcome. Can I get your inputs please? Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is an OTR jacket also from Suitsupply:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last and probably the worst-fitting is an OTR Brooks Brothers jacket. I think the shoulder is more sloped than mine shoulder (forgive my lack of technical terms) Is the jacket fixable?

 

 

 

 

 

post #2610 of 5371
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post



Tailors:

 

A question about fit of pants. This effect from the side seems to be common to every pair of trouser I own including higher end trouser makers. Is this problem pervasive with OTR, namely the absence of a nice line in the back. Is it just a matter of posture? For I find that if I lean forward a bit, I can get that straight line. Can this be fixed in OTR pants reasonably simply? And how good must the tailor be to do so?

 

The cuff measurement is 8.25 so not too skinny. I'm a 33 waist. This is a slim fit pant.

 

BTW: I wonder if there is still too much cuff showing or if this is within norm, though on the "forward" side?

 

700

It is a matter of posture or perhaps weight loss but it can be fixed. First and foremost, is the waist/seat loose? If not, it's probably because the back rise is a little too high and the stride is a little too full. Back rise is fixed by dropping the back part of the waistband slighty to take up the slack. Stride is fixed by slicing open the crotch seam and opening both inseams to the knee then taking in the back part of the inseam only. When the wrinkles are horizontal, the problem is in length. When they're vertical, the problem is in width or stride. When they're diagonal, it's a little bit of both. Your tailor should easily be able to do either of these alterations.

The jacket cuff may be a little high in the forward part of the sleeve. Looks like the cuff is working. Not an easy fix whether dropping whole sleeve length (depending on how those cuffs are sewn up) or dropping only the front part.

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