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3 roll 2.5 with peaked lapels - Page 3

post #31 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

There is a difference in construction between a roll 2 of 2.5 though I believe the terms aren't used by noninternet tailors.

On a 2.5 the tape which largely dictates lapel shape ends higher up than it would on a 2 button. In that case it would look silly without the show button.

The bridle (not necessarily made of tape) mostly ends well short of the top button anyway.

I would like to see an example of a tailor setting the crease line higher than the top button. Until I see it, I am calling BS I'm afraid, but would be pleased to be proven wrong. nod[1].gif
post #32 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sator View Post


The actual point being....?

Please enlighten this fool smile.gif

You're not a fool.

Whether you care to admit it or not, there are differences in construction between a 3B, a 2B or a 3R2, which Canta has touched on.

And whether you care to use them or not, they do provide a useful shorthand for a particular style, at least here on SF.

I think TWD is wrong in his definitions, but at the same time I think your reply was missing the point of the whole 3R2/3R2.5 terminology.
post #33 of 84
Dreadful, I suspect.
post #34 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sator View Post

^ What you are describing are not differences in the cut or construction at all.

There is actually no such thing as either a 3-to-2 or 3-to-2.5, except as iGent myth. A coat is bridled so that it is constructed to button-two or button-three. There are no in between ways of bridling a coat.

However, you can make up a button-two coat and then add in an extra decorative buttonhole at the top. In fact, you can do retro fit any button-two coat you have with just such a "show button". You will need to know how to make buttonholes and you may need to cut away a bit of the haircloth at the roll line above the second buttonhole. You then add a decorative show button, to make your button-two coat one with an extra show button. The traditional British term is then "button-two show-one". This means that the coat has been cut/constructed as a button-two coat but the phrase "show one" indicates that the top button is purely for show only. The misleading American term is "3-to-2", but it is wrong because it isn't a button-three coat at all - but rather a button-two coat with an extra decorative "show button" added in, almost as an afterthought.

Most three button lounge coats are bridled to button-three. If left unbuttoned, you will see that the natural tendency of the lapel is to roll to the top button. However, fashion may dictate that you leave the top button unfastened (I say fashion because at times it has been fashionable to button the top button). This doesn't change the fact that the coat is still constructed to button-three. It is not a button-two coat with an extra decorative show button on the lapel. It is a button-three coat on which the top button has been left unfastened.

In short, all lounges are cut, constructed/bridled to button-one, two, three or four. You can add in as many other decorative show buttons above the bridle as you want, and it won't change this.

I think it's interesting that Gordon Yao on the affiliate thread recently referred to a "3-roll-2" that he made for a customer as "a three buttons using two design" ... It left me wondering what he meant until you wrote this explanation...

http://www.styleforum.net/forum/thread/234481/gordon-yao-bespoke-tailors-official-affiliate-thread/120#post_4673201
post #35 of 84

nvm

post #36 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post


Whether you care to admit it or not, there are differences in construction between a 3B, a 2B or a 3R2, which Canta has touched on.

...the difference in construction being...?????

Personally, I suspect that the difference arises depending on how much roll of the lapel you have. If a coat is fused and the lapel fold is ironed flat, you tend not to get a roll, and it looks more obvious that the coat is a button-two with an extra show button. When a coat is canvassed and bridled to button-two, and you cut the haircloth well short of the buttoning point, you see a clearer roll. I doubt that anyone bridles a coat to a buttoning point half way between the top and second button, as all this would result in is a convex lapel crease line when the coat is buttoned up (to button-two).

This business of 3-to-2.574598 or whatever, is just a iGent attempt to explain these difference in the amount of roll.
post #37 of 84
Thread Starter 
I don't think it is an igent thing. You can take a true three button coat and press it to roll like a 2.5, however it spreads the gorge area away from the neck more, which can cause gaping and such. I feel like if a jacket is being made with a 3 roll 2.5 in mind the collar and gorge area would need more cloth thrown towards the neck to avoid gaping. Can we get Jeffery, or Chris in on this?
post #38 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sator View Post

...the difference in construction being...?????

Tailors can adjust the height at which a lapel rolls. Don't know how. Could be voodoo magic for all I care. But I know they can adjust the height at which a lapel rolls, and do so via a process independent of ironing.

You actually touch on how it may happen on your post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sator View Post

...and you cut the haircloth well short of the buttoning point, you see a clearer roll.

Ding ding ding - so we can adjust the construction to determine the roll? Could we perhaps adjust the height at which it happens then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sator View Post

This business of 3-to-2.574598 or whatever, is just a iGent attempt to explain these difference in the amount of roll.

Yeah, precisely.

Just like I said - it's shorthand for a look. Same as 'sack suit'. Same as 'zoot suit'. Same as 'drainpipe'. Same as 'oxford bag'. A shorthand for a look. A simple phrase that lets the other (appropriately educated party) know exactly what I'm talking about.

And like I suspected - you seem determined to ignore this because of the typical Sator intentional/unintentional obtuseness and talk past me, or because you have an axe to grind with the evil iGents who are taking the fun out of your ineffably captivating discussions of anachronistic tailoring styles.
post #39 of 84
Thread Starter 
Also, you won't be able to get as graceful of a roll with a shorter roll line. I feel like there needs to be a little "slack" if you will otherwise the tension from the collar on the neck and buttonpoint almost pulls the lapel flat.
post #40 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Has anybody ever seen a 3 roll 2.5 with peaked lapels? How do you think that would look?

Kinda silly in the "formal lapels on an informal cut" way.
post #41 of 84
We can have a theological debate on what counts as "construction" until we are all red in the face. But here are the two salient things that differentiate the roll on a jakcet.

First, as to cut: If you take a jacket and lay it out, with the lapel folded down so that the lapel and the jacket form a flat piece, you can see this clearly. Look at these two pattern drafts (taken from jeffryd's blog):

500

500

OK, take a look at the front edges on those coats, the edge of the lapel and the middle section and the quarters, which forms one line from the lapel notch to the bottom of the coat. Notice how the lapel sort of bulges out above the top button and then becomes straighter before curving away at the bottom. That curve at the top, if it is really pronounced, is what constitutes "belly." Either way, even if you want no belly, there has to be a little curve or else the lapel, once folded back for wear, will look oddly concave.

Now look at the diagonal line that goes from where that bulge ends, just above the top button up to the lower part of the notch. This is called the "roll line." I will let jeffryd (should he show up) explain what is going on inside the jacket along the roll line, but in brief it is what it sounds like: that's where the roll is when you wear the jacket.

The second thing that affects the roll is the tension of the collar. A tight collar pulls up a lapel, which in turn pushes down the roll line. So a tight collar lengthens the lapel, all else being equal. Less collar tension has the opposite effect.

So, jackets made with strict adherence to the pattern above will be three button with the roll beginning above the third button. I.e., a true 3 button or a 3 roll 3. Tighten the collar a little bit and/or adjust the roll line downward on the inside and you can make it a 3 roll 2.5.

Going back to that outer lapel edge: typically the roll line will always end at the bottom of the bulge. On a two button coat, the bulge will end above the waist button, i.e., several cms lower than you see above, and the roll line will go to the top of the waist button. Some tailors will cut a 3 roll 2.5 so that the bulge ends between the middle and top buttons. I recall once ordering a 3 roll 2.5 from Raphael and, at the first fitting, he was kicking himself because he had cut the lapel like a three button with the bulge ending higher. He insisted on re-cutting the fronts so that the bulge ended between the two buttons. That is how he cuts a 3 roll 2.5, at least for me. (Oh, and funny how “something that does not exist” is nonetheless on the lips of various accomplished tailors. Ask Raphael or Solito or A&S to make you a 3 roll 2.5 or a 3 roll through as the English would say, and they know immediately what you are talking about.)

But not every tailor does this. Solito cuts all my three button coats with the bulge ending above the top button. But either through adjusting the roll line or manipulating the collar tension or both the coats have a roll that goes past the top button but ends before the top of the waist button.

As for the various denials in this thread of things that everyone else can clearly see with their own two eyes, rolleyes.gif

Finally, on the original question: don't do it.
post #42 of 84
Thread Starter 
This all makes sense to me.
post #43 of 84
Where the lapel roll ends in relation to the buttons is totally controlled and set by how you baste the undercollar. The bridle and how you trim the chest piece follow the breakline and reinforce the roll but do not contribute to how and where the roll ends. The actual roll in the lapel is created by the pad stitching of the canvass to the cloth. You can't create or maintain this roll by pressing. The length of the roll is set when the undercollar is basted to the jacket. If the collar stretches or shrinks, where the roll finishes on the coat front will change.
If you start the curve of the belly below the top button on a 3 roll 2 or 2.5, you can't really say it is 3 roll 2 because the lapel shape defines the 2 or 3 button nature as much as the buttons. If the belly extends below the top button, you have a two button with an extra button above.
post #44 of 84

I'm not usually a peak lapel fan, but I kinda like these. I think the 3rd button would clash with the peaks. As foo said, they look better as a 2B or even 1B. 

copyoftostamp68bp6.jpg

 

franca.jpg

post #45 of 84
Thread Starter 
There are definitely some nice peaks in pic 2 if ya know what I mean... drool.gif
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