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post #76 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyto
You're missing the point: we (or at least I) got no satisfaction from reporting the incident we reported (the pins on the bio exam)--I just wanted a shot at a decent grade, a shot that I simply didn't have, no matter how well I knew the material, when the conditions of the exam had been altered. Did that make me a punk?

Agreed. The truth is that reporting cheating is a really stressful and unpleasant activity.
post #77 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty Ship
Argoth, are you talking to me? If so, you 9 vs. 1 reference only confirms my notion that once cheating gets a foothold, it will permeate the ethos.

Also, I don't have an "Ivy Diploma," more "Kudzu League."

Sorry, not talking directly to anyone.

The thread just struck a nerve with me regarding the hypocrisy of the system. The Ivy diploma bit was representative of me speaking to my classmates, since I do go to an Ivy, and the majority are all basically inept cheaters.

Arg
post #78 of 163
I just don't understand some of the people here; how is cheating on a test considered okay by any stretch of the imagination?

As for the reporting, let's just say that I've never reported anyone (and I've never actually seen cheating on exams -- I am probably very lucky / very focused in exams and hence don't notice others), but I've always thought that even if I did see someone cheat, I wouldn't report them, and that would make me feel rather ashamed of myself for not having that modicum of courage.
post #79 of 163
I've never reported a cheater and this thread made me wonder why. I think it's because there just wasn't a right time for me to do so. If I were to report a cheater, I would have to do so while it's occuring, not after the fact when it would be hard to prove and nothing could be done about it. During a test, I would probably be much too busy concentrating on my own work to do anything about it.
post #80 of 163
I'm in University right now. We have an honor code. I think it generally is pretty well respected, because people know the consequences for cheating. All cases are published (with names omitted) and punishes can be severe - 1 or 2 semesters off usually.

That said, there still is a lot of cheating that takes place - noticeably among the athletes (sorry to any ex-athletes here). While it is annoying to here about people getting B's or A's in one of the few multiple-choice test-based classes here while doing exactly no work, in the grand scheme of things it really isn't that big of a deal.

It would probably never turn someone in for cheating. To me, it is too much like playing God. How will I feel if I turn someone in for cheating? What if they are on the fast track to a good, high-paying job, good life, the American dream, whatever.

They make a mistake and cheat, and I turn them in. They get suspended for 2 semesters, they have to go back home since there is nothing for them to do in the city where the University is. Their girlfriend leaves them, they lose their scholarships, and now there is a huge red mark on their transcript that no employer will look over.

I have caused this person tons of emotional pain and stress and financial and other damage that will have implications for the rest of their lives. This may seem like an extreme example, but I think it would be pretty typical. Getting kicked out of school for a semester or two hurts people, emotionally and financially. Should you turn someone in and do that to someone just because they were cheating? Maybe some here feel fine with doing this to someone, but I personally would not.

Part of the reason I don't mind when others cheat so much is because I really haven't bought into the whole concept of higher education hook, line, and sinker like many have. Maybe this is a juvenile view, but I still think that higher education is mainly signalling to potential employers. Going through the motions and getting your 3.7 and graduating with honors tells them that you are normal, can function in society, and are worthy of getting a job.

When I was younger and (much more) arrogant, I would always think about your average corporate America guy and say, "give me 1 month and I will figure out how to do that job just as well or better than him." I still believe this to an extent. Heck, I am studying economics and am trying to go into finance. These are "reasonably" connected, but I seriously doubt I am going to use any of the knowledge I learned from my classes in the workplace.

The main benefit of college is the social experience, learning how to deal with your teachers, juggling responsibilities while on your own away from home, and so on. The fact that grades exist and have real effects on people is a reality that I don't really like but have to deal with. This is why I enjoy grade inflation, and don't blame people when they cheat - I don't really think it is hurting them.
post #81 of 163
Quote:
They make a mistake and cheat, and I turn them in. They get suspended for 2 semesters, they have to go back home since there is nothing for them to do in the city where the University is. Their girlfriend leaves them, they lose their scholarships, and now there is a huge red mark on their transcript that no employer will look over.

I have caused this person tons of emotional pain and stress and financial and other damage that will have implications for the rest of their lives. This may seem like an extreme example, but I think it would be pretty typical. Getting kicked out of school for a semester or two hurts people, emotionally and financially. Should you turn someone in and do that to someone just because they were cheating? Maybe some here feel fine with doing this to someone, but I personally would not.
I guess it depends on your value system. To me cheating is one of the most offensive things you can do in life, whether on your wife, on the job or in the classroom. My response to this is to say that those that wish to cheat should think long and hard about the consequences before doing so. If they do and are caught in the act then they should be prepared to deal with the aftermath.
post #82 of 163
No one ever said that turning in a cheater was a pleasure, or fun, or even vengful. It was always presented to me as a matter of duty; and duty is a little more sublime that "the path of least resistance," or what makes everyone feel good. In most Honor Systems, the first duty is for the offending individual to turn himself in. Then, if another student "catches" the offender, that student asks the offender to turn himself in. Only as a last resort is the offender "turned in." And, by the way, the only way an Honor system can be effective is if it is "single sanction." Immediate expulsion. I've seen Honor trials resulting in the offender having to pack and leave campus by sundown.

The essence of it is that one must not only value Honor more highly than his relationships with others, but at the very core, one is expected to place Honor above even his own self interests. In such a community, your relationship with others has a value that is absent in a community where honor is devalued. And in a community in which people are operating at that level, great things can happen. In a community where that doesn't happen, it is a Hobbsian "war of each against all." The relationships you try to protect by not turning in a dishonorable person, the relationships you are trying to protect in a community of "dishonor," are probably not what they appear to be to begin with.

So, as usual, the most difficult and often painful path offers the greatest rewards.
post #83 of 163
Some people are just hypercompetitive and will do anything to be "ahead" of everyone else. Probably good to keep your distance. One TA in college told us, "If life sucks, lower your standards."
post #84 of 163
The University of Virginia's honor code is often cited as an example of an especially strict honor code which few dare cross. What you said about ruining someone's life by turning him/her in, I don't quite agree with. I'm not advocating playing God/police or whatever if you don't want to, but it's just the way that you look at it that I can't agree with. What I mean is that the person doing the turning in is not the one ruining a life. You're not the guilty party. It's the perpetrator who's ruining his own life. Chances are that if he thinks he can get away with anything and get wherever he wants to get without concern for others, sometimes at their expense, he'll go on to do more of the same in his professional/personal life later on. Maybe everything in life is a zero-sum game for him. Maybe being forced to take some time off, which may or may not involve going home, would be a benefit and teach such a person a lot. The person need not be condemned as being some bad apple. Perhaps it was a habitual cheater who was finally caught, or perhaps it was someone who followed bad judgment for the first time. In any case hopefully it changes things for the person. You're probably right that much of the significance to others(such as potential employers) is that you've gone through the motions, and I sort of treated it as such. I took the classes I wanted and just did whatever I could in each class without stressing myself too much. I wasn't terribly concerned about grades. I know some who would triple-major, some who had parents who had to "approve" their course selection each term and so on, and if they wanted to stress themselves about grades, fine. I just didn't care to do the same. "Going away" to college is a good thing for some, a bad thing for others. Some abuse the relative freedom while others mature and really figure things out.
post #85 of 163
When i was in school I noticed it was african americans that were always or most always cheating. That's just a side note, a reply to the others that said it was always asian girls they noticed cheating.

However, you did the right thing, bro.

"I shall not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those that do"

Even if your grade ended up lower because of the curve, or
maybe you just feel the unfairness of the world, or you feel
slighted because you did the work and they didnt. I dont know.

But when you look at the man in the mirror, you will know you did what is
right. That counts for something.
post #86 of 163
Yep, most of the cheating in college is blacks and asians. People often resist turning them in because of liberal guilt. Damned PC campuses.
post #87 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRogers
Somewhere during this thread the distinction was lost between agreeing that cheating is ok and thinking that it is one's responsibility to report it. I absolutely do not agree with cheating, but I also don't think its my responsibility to actively police others.

I'm sure that those on their soapbox will degrade me for my belief's, however, i'm sure they themselves engage in such behavior, at least to some degree, regularly, without a second thought.

MrR

(I'm sorry, but I can't possibly take a lawyers lecture RE: cheating seriously)
Well, that's because you evidently assume everyone is as lacking in integrity as you. Perhaps you could tell us what saintly, self-abnegating vocation you follow?
post #88 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyto

Nice cheap shot.
You have low standards. I appreciate a nice cheap shot as much as the next guy, even when I'm the target. But that was a pretty lame effort.
post #89 of 163
Well, that's because you evidently assume everyone is as lacking in integrity as you. Perhaps you could tell us what saintly, self-abnegating vocation you follow

that's wrong man, and you distorted this whole discussion.

Even your own comment is contratictory to itself.

I'm trying not to hit on you hard, but those 2 statements are not right.
post #90 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Condor
Well, that's because you evidently assume everyone is as lacking in integrity as you. Perhaps you could tell us what saintly, self-abnegating vocation you follow that's wrong man, and you distorted this whole discussion. Even your own comment is contratictory to itself. I'm trying not to hit on you hard, but those 2 statements are not right.
? WTF ? By the way, you plagiarized lawyerdad's quote, which is just NOT COOL. I'm reporting you to J.
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