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post #106 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcaimen
I have no doubt that this was a heartfelt, sincere post, and thats what makes it even sadder.

Then cry me a river.

<==== I love this guy.
post #107 of 163
Quote:
Hey, let me let you on in on a little secret. Do you have any idea how many classical musicians, who are in the NY Phil, or famous touring soloists, and at top conservatories cheat? It isn't because they lack honor or integrity, and it isn't as that moron whnay suggested, the new, lesser generation. It's people who are doing something at a very high level who simply don't have the time to deal with idiotic theory classes or whatever else. They've made a convenant to become excellent at something, as hard as becoming an olympic athlete on both mind and body, with an industry for which the word cuthroat is utterly inadequate.
Crap. Look, if idiotic theory classes aren't really important, why take them? If meaningless classes are required at conservatory, why is that? If there's such universal acknowledgement that this is all some ridiculous sham to conform to a meaningless political game, why doesn't someone take responsibility for changing the system? But setting that aside, YOU choose to study a difficult instrument, YOU choose to go to a leading conservatory with XYZ academic requirements, YOU choose to enter the stressful, competitive field of classical orchestral music, YOU choose to apply for jobs in hyper-competitive, highly political markets. So how can you then complain about the requirements being unfair, as if they were some burden being unfairly imposed upon you? Would you argue that because the tax structure is all screwed up, it's reasonable to decide to simply pay whatever you would if the system worked the way it should? Of course not, though you have considerably less choice about the tax system than about your choice of career, so that argument just doesn't hold water. Besides, NO "idiotic" theory class can EVER stand in the way of ANYONE simply becoming an outstanding, world-class musician, if that is REALLY their goal. BUT that annoying class CAN perhaps stand in the way of them becoming a famous, recognized, renowned and wealthy world-class musician, can't it? That's the bottom line. Don't confuse greed, vanity and ego with the honorable pursuit of excellence.
Quote:
A little aside for you Quirk. In these auditions you speak so highly of, women sometimes STILL make a point to wear heals and walk deliberately on the hard wood floor (where now they've put a carpet to the audition area) to show that they're women. If that didn't happen a lot in the 70s, the NY Phil's violin section wouldn't be mostly dominated by woman (and, the best talent available). Also, you have only to ask any person in the industry about how corrupt the audition process can be. Sorry to blow your magical little bubble. My colleagues will be touched, though.
I don't get your point about the NYPhil string section being dominated by women -- you seem to be saying that audition panels are/were biased in favor of women, but then you also seem to indicate that women happened to represent "the best talent available". I honestly just didn't follow your argument there. The rest of this paragraph is basically, "there's lots of corruption, so cheating is justified." Nonsense.
Quote:
I don't claim to have a perfect ideology, but I just kind of leave it up to the examiners to catch cheaters, I don't police other people because I certainly don't mean to be policed.
I think part of the problem is that you and others here don't seem to have a consistent ideology: "I personally wouldn't cheat, because it's wrong, but it's not wrong for others to do it because the system is screwed up; but even though you could say that technically, it really is wrong, others shouldn't be held accountable, because turning them in would hold them back from other accomplishments, and I wouldn't want anyone turning me in, even though I wouldn't cheat in the first place." Don't those kind of ethical gymnastics make your head hurt?
Quote:
If you think is cheating is so morally reprehensible, then you might be surprised that many of those who you admire had to cut corners to do what they really love, and funny enough, the world is a better place for it. Justice doesn't always mean punishment...
I'm rarely surprised by moral or ethical failings, but I'm constantly surprised by the extent to which people will try to justify and rationalize them, rather than calling themselves on it. Particularly when the supposed 'greater good' being used to justify the cheating is, in actuality, so transparently self-interested. I get immense pleasure out of hearing Itzhak Perlman play, but if he were to try to (hypothetically) explain that he felt compelled to cheat his way through conservatory in order that his talent might become famous enough to somehow transform, in some small way, the occasional melancholia of people he'd never even met, I'd have to laugh in his face.
post #108 of 163
Quote:
idiotic theory classes

music theory is idiotic?

something tells me you might not be a very good

post #109 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirk
Crap. Look, if idiotic theory classes aren't really important, why take them? If meaningless classes are required at conservatory, why is that? If there's such universal acknowledgement that this is all some ridiculous sham to conform to a meaningless political game, why doesn't someone take responsibility for changing the system?

But setting that aside, YOU choose to study a difficult instrument, YOU choose to go to a leading conservatory with XYZ academic requirements, YOU choose to enter the stressful, competitive field of classical orchestral music, YOU choose to apply for jobs in hyper-competitive, highly political markets. So how can you then complain about the requirements being unfair, as if they were some burden being unfairly imposed upon you? Would you argue that because the tax structure is all screwed up, it's reasonable to decide to simply pay whatever you would if the system worked the way it should? Of course not, though you have considerably less choice about the tax system than about your choice of career, so that argument just doesn't hold water.

Besides, NO "idiotic" theory class can EVER stand in the way of ANYONE simply becoming an outstanding, world-class musician, if that is REALLY their goal. BUT that annoying class CAN perhaps stand in the way of them becoming a famous, recognized, renowned and wealthy world-class musician, can't it? That's the bottom line. Don't confuse greed, vanity and ego with the honorable pursuit of excellence.



I don't get your point about the NYPhil string section being dominated by women -- you seem to be saying that audition panels are/were biased in favor of women, but then you also seem to indicate that women happened to represent "the best talent available". I honestly just didn't follow your argument there. The rest of this paragraph is basically, "there's lots of corruption, so cheating is justified." Nonsense.



I think part of the problem is that you and others here don't seem to have a consistent ideology: "I personally wouldn't cheat, because it's wrong, but it's not wrong for others to do it because the system is screwed up; but even though you could say that technically, it really is wrong, others shouldn't be held accountable, because turning them in would hold them back from other accomplishments, and I wouldn't want anyone turning me in, even though I wouldn't cheat in the first place." Don't those kind of ethical gymnastics make your head hurt?



I'm rarely surprised by moral or ethical failings, but I'm constantly surprised by the extent to which people will try to justify and rationalize them, rather than calling themselves on it. Particularly when the supposed 'greater good' being used to justify the cheating is, in actuality, so transparently self-interested.

I get immense pleasure out of hearing Itzhak Perlman play, but if he were to try to (hypothetically) explain that he felt compelled to cheat his way through conservatory in order that his talent might become famous enough to somehow transform, in some small way, the occasional melancholia of people he'd never even met, I'd have to laugh in his face.

Listen, I do lots of things that are wrong and I don't claim to be a good person, so this doesn't bother me. I do have certain morals, but I suppose my ethics are out of whack. I don't particularly care about that. Perhaps I live on the fringe of society. In then end, I'm just exposing reality to you, and I'm telling you that I'm ok with it. It's not an ideal situation, but it's what's real in the world, and I'm saying that I don't think it's so bad. In any profession, there's any number of useless hurdles one has to go through. I'm talking about my own and my own experiences. Personally I couldn't give a rats ass if someone cheated in their theory courses. You probably think I'm immoral... that's absolutely fine. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm just telling you why I don't care.

All I can say is that it must be incredibly lonely on your little high horse. Also, I think the idea of someone like you, laughing at someone like Perlman (who in one day does more for humanity than you're self righteous moralizing does in your entire life), would be quite hilarious. You should try it sometime, Mr. Perlman's a funny guy and I'm sure he'd have some great little comebacks for you.
post #110 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by javyn
music theory is idiotic?

something tells me you might not be a very good


Pavarotti can't read music. I also have a friend who played a solo with the Berlin Phil and other top orchestras this year and has a recording contract with Deutche Grammaphon who "outsourced" his theory homework at Juilliard.

And I bet you Perlman couldn't tell you how to re-interpret a German 6-5. Trust me, theory courses have little to do with performance (and funny enough I have Bs and A-s in all my theory courses)...

So please, unless you actually know anything about this topic, keep your clearly misinformed opinions to yourself.
post #111 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violinist
Listen, I do lots of things that are wrong and I don't claim to be a good person, so this doesn't bother me. I do have certain morals, but I suppose my ethics are out of whack. I don't particularly care about that. Perhaps I live on the fringe of society. In then end, I'm just exposing reality to you, and I'm telling you that I'm ok with it. It's not an ideal situation, but it's what's real in the world, and I'm saying that I don't think it's so bad. In any profession, there's any number of useless hurdles one has to go through. I'm talking about my own and my own experiences. Personally I couldn't give a rats ass if someone cheated in their theory courses. You probably think I'm immoral... that's absolutely fine. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm just telling you why I don't care.

All I can say is that it must be incredibly lonely on your little high horse. Also, I think the idea of someone like you, laughing at someone like Perlman (who in one day does more for humanity than you're self righteous moralizing does in your entire life), would be quite hilarious. You should try it sometime, Mr. Perlman's a funny guy and I'm sure he'd have some great little comebacks for you.

Please be rational, if you will. Otherwise, the discussion is useless. As I've said, multiple times, no one is without transgression, or ever can be, so the point is not whether anyone has ever violated a code of morality or not. The issue is one of integrity more than morality. You break the law, you get caught, you pay the price.

And, as I've also said before, even if you don't feel morally obligated to report someone who has violated a code you yourself recognize as legitimate, please explain, if you can, your contempt rather than respect for those who do.

It's one thing to at least admit that you don't acknowledge that cheating is wrong, and to assert that you would never turn anyone else in because you think it's right and appropriate for them and you to do whatever it takes to advance through the corrupt bureaucratic sham that is the classical music world. That position at least has some intellectual integrity. But you're not saying that. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Quote:
All I can say is that it must be incredibly lonely on your little high horse. Also, I think the idea of someone like you, laughing at someone like Perlman (who in one day does more for humanity than you're self righteous moralizing does in your entire life), would be quite hilarious. You should try it sometime, Mr. Perlman's a funny guy and I'm sure he'd have some great little comebacks for you.

But... that's not really all that much of an argument -- is it supposed to be? If I were, say... six years old, it might hurt my feelings, though.
post #112 of 163
People, if given the opportunity, will rationalize anything.
post #113 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violinist
Cast ye the first stone. If you're going to turn someone in for cheating on a stupid test, then you had better be mother theresa. Who cares? Academia is mostly bullshit anyways, and people have to do it so they can move on to bigger, better things. What, are you going to start reporting people for skipping class too?

Get a life.

I'll need to read the rest of the new threads, but it's important to note that even if you are pro-cheating, there are distinctions.

Cheating on music theory may not be much in the grand scheme to you, but come into my world -- I'm an engineer. If cheaters don't know their shit, people can die -- you are not required to take a licensing exam in most instances to practice as an engineer.

Regards,
Huntsman
post #114 of 163
I totally agree with Liberty Ship.

Don't hand off the hard part.

Set an example of excellence.

Lead from the front, and by example.

That, is the only way to live.
post #115 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirk
Please be rational, if you will. Otherwise, the discussion is useless. As I've said, multiple times, no one is without transgression, or ever can be, so the point is not whether anyone has ever violated a code of morality or not. The issue is one of integrity more than morality. You break the law, you get caught, you pay the price.

And, as I've also said before, even if you don't feel morally obligated to report someone who has violated a code you yourself recognize as legitimate, please explain, if you can, your contempt rather than respect for those who do.

It's one thing to at least admit that you don't acknowledge that cheating is wrong, and to assert that you would never turn anyone else in because you think it's right and appropriate for them and you to do whatever it takes to advance through the corrupt bureaucratic sham that is the classical music world. That position at least has some intellectual integrity. But you're not saying that. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.



But... that's not really all that much of an argument -- is it supposed to be? If I were, say... six years old, it might hurt my feelings, though.


Sorry, I guess I'm just one of those losers who always hated taddle tales.

I agree that there are varying cases of severity. For example, in medical school, or engineering school, ones knowledge is fairly crucial. My mother is a prof at two medical schools, writes many of the questions for the provincial exam, and is in charge of many residents. She says that at this level, people hold each other accountable. I can accept that, and in fact expect it. But here at my university, especially when I'm taking some bullshit sociology course or whatever, if someone is looking off my test, I really couldn't care less. In fact, since I have perfect pitch, when I sit down for the ear training exams, at least 3 people who know me will sit within view of my page. I don't turn them in because A) I am no better B) I know that they're highly capable people who could use a break every now and then, just like how I could. Some of them are in fact super talented and by virtue of them practicing all the time, don't have the time to get good at notating Webern. So, for me, it logically follows that the world is a better place with a talented cellist or whatever, than some guy who has to redo a year or whatever of education, stalling his career, because someone turned him in for cheating on a stupid little exam.

Do you report a friend to the authorities for stealing cable or parking in a handicapped zone? How about if he downloads music off the internet? Did you taddle on your friends in unversity when they drank underage??

So if you're in law school of medical school or engineering school and you catch someone cheating, there's very subtle ways to let them know that they should stop. It could have been a grave mistake on their part, something that they don't normally do. If they persist, then they will definately get caught eventually.
post #116 of 163
Your argument is that there is a degree, or degrees of wrongness.

It might be true that cheating in engineering school, maybe might, possibly, eventually result in somebody being killed.

It is most likely not, cheating in music school has the same end result.

I agree with you.

But that's details. That's nuts and bolts.

I want, or would like to, back out to the Big Picture.

You either want to define your life by what you do, what you can
do, and what you have earned, yourself. Or you don't.

I still say it is wrong to define yourself by your neighbors work.
Or to define yourself by having a stack of cheat notes.

I joined this forum for a number of reasons. To get some help, make some
friends, etc etc. I don't want to be unpopular. I actually wore white socks
with black shoes until about a year ago. "Not so stylish". I agree.

But I realize also, being a member of a community is to give something back.
I want to give something back.

Lying, cheating and stealing is wrong, no matter how anyone wishes to
justify it not hurting anybody. At the very, very least, you cheat yourself.

Maybe not everybody is meant to be Izak Stern (I think that is his name I actually saw him in real life). You go find something else to do, that you are better at doing. But, it is still wrong to live off of/steal off of the talents of others.
post #117 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Condor
Your argument is that there is a degree, or degrees of wrongness.

It might be true that cheating in engineering school, maybe might, possibly, eventually result in somebody being killed.

It is most likely not, cheating in music school has the same end result.

I agree with you.

But that's details. That's nuts and bolts.

I want, or would like to, back out to the Big Picture.

You either want to define your life by what you do, what you can
do, and what you have earned, yourself. Or you don't.

I still say it is wrong to define yourself by your neighbors work.
Or to define yourself by having a stack of cheat notes.

I joined this forum for a number of reasons. To get some help, make some
friends, etc etc. I don't want to be unpopular. I actually wore white socks
with black shoes until about a year ago. "Not so stylish". I agree.

But I realize also, being a member of a community is to give something back.
I want to give something back.

Lying, cheating and stealing is wrong, no matter how anyone wishes to
justify it not hurting anybody. At the very, very least, you cheat yourself.

Maybe not everybody is meant to be Izak Stern (I think that is his name I actually saw him in real life). You go find something else to do, that you are better at doing. But, it is still wrong to live off of/steal off of the talents of others.

That's what you don't get. Sometimes what you must do to get to a certain point has nothing to do with what you want to really do. Such as music theory. Just because you aren't good at theory doesn't mean you aren't an excellent performer. I get what you mean, but unfortunately I believe in degrees of things. I agree that all lying is wrong, however different varieties require different methods of justice.
post #118 of 163
Then there is something that I do not understand.
I am open to that.

The idea of music theory vs. musical performance, or
even vs. musical talent is lost on me.

I recognize you as a basically good person.
I am going to think on this a lot.

There just might be something I don't get.
post #119 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Condor
Then there is something that I do not understand.
I am open to that.

The idea of music theory vs. musical performance, or
even vs. musical talent is lost on me.

I recognize you as a basically good person.
I am going to think on this a lot.

There just might be something I don't get.

Basic music theory is crucial to being able to play music. Knowing the basic tonal structure of a work, understanding the tonic-predominant-dominant-tonic structure is important... however, getting into the nitty gritty and more advanced stuff such as Shankarian anaylsis and late 19th century tonality wit composers like Wagner, Strauss and Debussy and even 20th century theory might enrich you as a person but I can assure you that many successful performers aren't conscious of such things.

Gymnasts for example, have a natural intuition where physics are concerned. That doesn't mean they have to study it in detail though. Unfortunately, academia has now standardized, more or less, the study of music and therefore some institutions go over board, like where I'm studying. I have a talented friend who went to study in germany just to avoid all the work you have to do at North American schools. Most of it is pretty useless unless you want to compose. Most good artists have the natural intuition to work with whatever they are playing, and to feel what to do, rather than analyzing it in a didactic manner. So, if I turn a blind eye so someone can pass their theory final and get back to the practice room, sue me.
post #120 of 163
It's very telling that so many people (thankfully, not all) look at the issue of whether or not to turn in a cheater through the prism of self interest. How many posts in this thread boil down to: "If the cheater is harming me in some way, then I should turn him in. If I'm not being harmed, then I shouldn't turn in the cheater."

This is a black and white issue for me. If the school has an honor code, then the students should follow it. If that code includes turning in cheaters, then cheaters should be turned in.

If you don't like the honor code, don't go to that school. Find a different school with a less stringent honor code.

It's sad that so many seem to be of the opinion that honor and integrity are irrelevant, cheating is ok as long as you don't get caught, and not being a "tattle tale" is more important than keeping your word. It explains a lot about our society. (Think Enron, Elan, Tyco, Medicare fraud, etc.)
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