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Advice about a bizarre rental situation in NYC

post #1 of 29
7/17/11 at 9:39pm
Thread Starter 
I am a Canadian. I was supposed to move to NYC on June 12th.

I found an apartment share through Craigslist on June 6th. Person renting the apartment (two person share) is an older person. A younger woman answered my craigslist message. I talked to the older person, seemed a good fit, agreed to move on june 12th.

Bank wired a $1400 deposit the next day.

On June 11th, my Visa is still not approved, so I cannot move yet to NYC.
I let the person know of my situation, says no problem, let me know when you are coming.


Ditto, again June 16th.

June 22nd, Visa arrives but due to administration mistakes, it is incorrect and I am denied entry at the border (well, I can enter as a tourist, just not get my work permit). I go back to sort it out.
I let the person know, says no problem, let me know.

I wait and wait for my visa to be resolved.

July 10--Older person says bank wire me July rent, or I have to get another renter!


My visa is not resolved, and my start/entry date is all screwed up, pushed to end of August.

I tell the older person "Fine, sorry for the mess, can you return my deposit?"

PErson says "you used it up in June!"

I say can you give me half the deposit back?

Person tells me to fuck off...hangs up. Not answering my phone calls or e-mails.

During any of this time, there was no written (or verbal) rental agreement or contract, or anything signed. There is still nothing.


What are my options now? Are there ways for me to legally get my money back?



As an aside, who has the moral right on his side in this mess?
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post #2 of 29
7/18/11 at 5:20am
Welcome to landlords in NYC. Morality goes right out the window with these people. I have had some horror stories. Basically, by you sending them money and them accepting it, it acts as a sort of contract similar to a month-to-month "lease". You could try to fight it, but it will cost you a lawyer and a lot of time and you will probably in all honesty lose.

You probably shouldn't have tried to rent an apartment until you were totally ready to move. Just a note for next time.
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post #3 of 29
7/18/11 at 7:32am
I don't see anything all that 'bizarre' about this situation at all, except that communications definitely weren't great.

You agreed, on June 6 to rent the apartment beginning June 12, and wired a deposit of some kind, presumably to 'hold' the apartment for you. You aren't able to move in on June 12, and you let them know that. I guess what I don't understand is what you were thinking they would do? Did you think they would hold the apartment - empty - until you were good and ready to move in? For no money?

Look at it from the perspective of the landlord. They've got real costs (a mortgage, condo fees, etc.) every single month, and a line of prospective tenants willing to rent the apartment. They're not going to keep it empty for you for free.
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post #4 of 29
7/18/11 at 8:54am
You don't deserve to get your $ back.

Be happy the landlord doesn't sue YOU for failure to give proper notice
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post #5 of 29
7/18/11 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilzario View Post

...
During any of this time, there was no written (or verbal) rental agreement or contract, or anything signed. There is still nothing.
...

That's your problem right there. You basically sent this person a bunch of money with no agreement on what that money was for, and now you're paying the price, literally and figuratively.

As to the moral question. I can see where you're frustrated, but, as another poster noted, you have to look at it from the landlord's perspective: They were anticipating having you in the place, so they ostensibly reserved it for you, which means they didn't market it to other prospective renters. It's not their fault you weren't able to move in, and it's unfair to expect them to return the money and take a loss on those months because of something that wasn't their fault. Incidentally, you said you sent the $1,400 as a "deposit." Isn't that exactly the purpose of a deposit anyway - it guarantees that you keep your word and move in, with the penalty being the loss of the deposit should you not do so?

I know it sucks, but I just don't see where you have a leg to stand on, legally or morally.
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post #6 of 29
7/18/11 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tj100 View Post

I don't see anything all that 'bizarre' about this situation at all, except that communications definitely weren't great.

You agreed, on June 6 to rent the apartment beginning June 12, and wired a deposit of some kind, presumably to 'hold' the apartment for you. You aren't able to move in on June 12, and you let them know that. I guess what I don't understand is what you were thinking they would do? Did you think they would hold the apartment - empty - until you were good and ready to move in? For no money?

Look at it from the perspective of the landlord. They've got real costs (a mortgage, condo fees, etc.) every single month, and a line of prospective tenants willing to rent the apartment. They're not going to keep it empty for you for free.


I don't understand what the poster was thinking, but I don't get wtf you're saying either! smile.gif

It looks like poster was thinking landlord is a saint, and landlord thought poster was a tard or worse.

I am not a lawyer--but I think its common knowledge the security deposit is not intended to cover the first month of uninhabited renting.

When the poster did not show June 12, landlord should have refunded deposit and got in another tenant, or made it clear that the security deposit is being exhausted, unauthorized.

What's all this "No problem, let me know when you come!" without a word being said about "I'm using your deposit for June"?

In any event, the moral right is with the poster here, because clearly landlord was not being straight either. I cannot comment on who has the legal right. Interesting situation, someone else point out who will win this in court.
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post #7 of 29
7/18/11 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post


That's your problem right there. You basically sent this person a bunch of money with no agreement on what that money was for, and now you're paying the price, literally and figuratively.

As to the moral question. I can see where you're frustrated, but, as another poster noted, you have to look at it from the landlord's perspective: They were anticipating having you in the place, so they ostensibly reserved it for you, which means they didn't market it to other prospective renters. It's not their fault you weren't able to move in, and it's unfair to expect them to return the money and take a loss on those months because of something that wasn't their fault. Incidentally, you said you sent the $1,400 as a "deposit." Isn't that exactly the purpose of a deposit anyway - it guarantees that you keep your word and move in, with the penalty being the loss of the deposit should you not do so?

I know it sucks, but I just don't see where you have a leg to stand on, legally or morally.

This.
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post #8 of 29
7/18/11 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by miran View Post


I am not a lawyer--but I think its common knowledge the security deposit is not intended to cover the first month of uninhabited renting.

When the poster did not show June 12, landlord should have refunded deposit and got in another tenant, or made it clear that the security deposit is being exhausted, unauthorized.

He didn't say it was a security deposit, he said it was a "deposit". We don't actually know what this $1,400 comprised - was it First/Last/Security, one month's rent, or what? If it was F/L/S, I could see asking for 1/3rd of it back (the security portion).

I don't think communication from the landlord/sublessor was good - they should have made it clear what the 'terms' of the deposit were. But I also think it's completely unreasonable of the OP to think that you can change a move-in date by a few months without financial penalty.
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post #9 of 29
7/18/11 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tj100 View Post


He didn't say it was a security deposit, he said it was a "deposit". We don't actually know what this $1,400 comprised - was it First/Last/Security, one month's rent, or what? If it was F/L/S, I could see asking for 1/3rd of it back (the security portion).

I don't think communication from the landlord/sublessor was good - they should have made it clear what the 'terms' of the deposit were. But I also think it's completely unreasonable of the OP to think that you can change a move-in date by a few months without financial penalty.

As terrible as it is for the OP, he sent the 'deposit' and the landlord took the rental off the market. He changed his move-in date multiple times, and eventually didn't move in which means the landlord may have forfeited other rental opportunities. Can't imagine why anyone would think this situation would warrant the landlord returning the deposit.

Additionally, he wired money to a stranger without any documentation? shog[1].gif
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post #10 of 29
7/18/11 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilzario View Post

I am a Canadian. I was supposed to move to NYC on June 12th.

I found an apartment share through Craigslist on June 6th. Person renting the apartment (two person share) is an older person. A younger woman answered my craigslist message. I talked to the older person, seemed a good fit, agreed to move on june 12th.

Bank wired a $1400 deposit the next day.

On June 11th, my Visa is still not approved, so I cannot move yet to NYC.
I let the person know of my situation, says no problem, let me know when you are coming.

Ditto, again June 16th.

June 22nd, Visa arrives but due to administration mistakes, it is incorrect and I am denied entry at the border (well, I can enter as a tourist, just not get my work permit). I go back to sort it out.
I let the person know, says no problem, let me know.

I wait and wait for my visa to be resolved.

July 10--Older person says bank wire me July rent, or I have to get another renter!

My visa is not resolved, and my start/entry date is all screwed up, pushed to end of August.

I tell the older person "Fine, sorry for the mess, can you return my deposit?"

PErson says "you used it up in June!"

I say can you give me half the deposit back?

Person tells me to fuck off...hangs up. Not answering my phone calls or e-mails.

During any of this time, there was no written (or verbal) rental agreement or contract, or anything signed. There is still nothing.

What are my options now? Are there ways for me to legally get my money back?

As an aside, who has the moral right on his side in this mess?

Bit of a contradiction in the highlighted portions above.

Your deposit was to hold the place, which they did for a month. You strung them along for an entire month. Why should you get your money back?

As another poster said, next time wait until you have everything lined up properly.
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post #11 of 29
7/18/11 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CouttsClient View Post


As terrible as it is for the OP, he sent the 'deposit' and the landlord took the rental off the market. He changed his move-in date multiple times, and eventually didn't move in which means the landlord may have forfeited other rental opportunities. Can't imagine why anyone would think this situation would warrant the landlord returning the deposit.

Additionally, he wired money to a stranger without any documentation? shog[1].gif

I am surmising here, based on my own history of issues with landlords (ahhahaha), but I think the poster saw a golden opportunity and jumped on it. Also, like you say, nothing was documented on either side, which probably means this was a condo owner subletting or something like that.

i see your point, but isn't the onus on the landlord to inform the tenant that the deposit is being used? I think deposit by definition is a security deposit, otherwise it's called "first month" or "last month". Otherwise, this doesn't make any sense. Is the landlord so stupid to think the poster is so stupid to sit there and let the deposit be used up while he can't enter the country? Landlord (this sounds more and more like a sublet by one party of a two-party rented apartment or condo--a situation I had a problem with in college) was enjoying have the whole place to himself, while using the deposit as the other party's rent. He knew what he was doing. That's why I am saying the moral right is on the poster's side. Landlord is an ass!!

It is clear that both sides are clueless in this situation. So morality aside, the law stands as the final arbiter. Is there a lawyer in the house with experience is domestic rental disputes who knows?
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post #12 of 29
7/18/11 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by miran View Post

i see your point, but isn't the onus on the landlord to inform the tenant that the deposit is being used? I think deposit by definition is a security deposit, otherwise it's called "first month" or "last month". Otherwise, this doesn't make any sense. Is the landlord so stupid to think the poster is so stupid to sit there and let the deposit be used up while he can't enter the country? Landlord (this sounds more and more like a sublet by one party of a two-party rented apartment or condo--a situation I had a problem with in college) was enjoying have the whole place to himself, while using the deposit as the other party's rent. He knew what he was doing. That's why I am saying the moral right is on the poster's side. Landlord is an ass!!

I'll give you the landlord's side of it:

I put my spare bedroom up for rent on Craigslist for $1,400 a month, and some Canadian jumps on it, says he's moving to NYC next week, wants the place, moving in next thursday. Dude sends me $1,400 as a deposit, and everything's good. The day before he's supposed to move in, he calls and says that he won't be arriving tomorrow because he got stopped at the border with some visa issue (terrorist?) - but he's coming soon. On Monday, he gets turned away from the border again (either a terrorist or a massive flake), but he'll be here next week. This goes on and on. A month goes by, dude shows no sign of arriving (it's always going to be 'next week'). It's a sweet apartment, so I can rent it in a heartbeat to somebody else. I guess I'll ask for July rent, and if he wants to pay, that's cool, but otherwise, I'm taking that asshole's deposit and renting it to somebody else.

Now he wants his deposit back? I understand that he's pissed that he paid for a place that he didn't get to live in, that sucks. But I paid the mortgage on his bedroom whether he stayed there or not. This is exactly why I asked for a deposit from some random foreign flake.
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post #13 of 29
7/18/11 at 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by miran View Post


I am surmising here, based on my own history of issues with landlords (ahhahaha), but I think the poster saw a golden opportunity and jumped on it. Also, like you say, nothing was documented on either side, which probably means this was a condo owner subletting or something like that.

i see your point, but isn't the onus on the landlord to inform the tenant that the deposit is being used? I think deposit by definition is a security deposit, otherwise it's called "first month" or "last month". Otherwise, this doesn't make any sense. Is the landlord so stupid to think the poster is so stupid to sit there and let the deposit be used up while he can't enter the country? Landlord (this sounds more and more like a sublet by one party of a two-party rented apartment or condo--a situation I had a problem with in college) was enjoying have the whole place to himself, while using the deposit as the other party's rent. He knew what he was doing. That's why I am saying the moral right is on the poster's side. Landlord is an ass!!

It is clear that both sides are clueless in this situation. So morality aside, the law stands as the final arbiter. Is there a lawyer in the house with experience is domestic rental disputes who knows?

I wouldn't agree that the moral right is on the OPs side. Sounds like a fairly idiotic thing to do. If I was the landlord of course I would make things clear but frankly, you shouldn't expect someone to take a property off the market and reserve it for you without you having to pay for it. The landlord could likely sue for failure to give proper notice, get to keep the deposit and be awarded a judgement for July's rent.
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post #14 of 29
7/18/11 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by miran View Post


I am not a lawyer--but I think its common knowledge the security deposit is not intended to cover the first month of uninhabited renting.

Generally it is illegal to retain a security deposit for back rent. Often tenants can recover double damages if a landlord tries to do something like that.

Unfortunately OP is from Canada where apparently they have yet to begin the process of transcribing human thoughts and words into a written language. Without a written contract OP is SOL.
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post #15 of 29
7/18/11 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post


Generally it is illegal to retain a security deposit for back rent. Often tenants can recover double damages if a landlord tries to do something like that.

Unfortunately OP is from Canada where apparently they have yet to begin the process of transcribing human thoughts and words into a written language. Without a written contract OP is SOL.

laugh.gif
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