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does anyone here play MMORPGs? - Page 6

post #76 of 100
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian SD
thats rough on you? my rig is worse and eq2 ran pretty well for me.

I was on grobb. maybe my server got merged with another one.

it's the video card that kills me. radeon 9600 pro is OLD. plus i hate running low res. i'm gonna upgrade in a few months to a new rig with an 8800gtx and run at like 1900x1200 ;p
post #77 of 100
I'm glad to say that I have no idea what this thread question refers to.
post #78 of 100
Geek, what is DF and when is the release date?
post #79 of 100
Thread Starter 
darkfall online. it's gonna be ffa pvp with full looting; no carebear servers. it's also gonna involve player skill and not just character/gear/levels to determine the outcome. You can level off of pvp.

I don't know when release is but judging by the information i got from my guildies, beta will be soon cause they've given us a certain number of phase 1 beta spots and the rest of the guild will be brought in over time. There's no release date yet. It's at least 6-8 months off, assuming it goes in to beta very soon. We're hoping it'll be the a pvpers wet dream, but i don't wanna get too excited just yet cause

edit: for the spectators, carebear servers are the ones where everyone just stands arount emoting, killing ai, and hugging each other. ;p

it's all good though, i've played on them occasionally myself.
post #80 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek
edit: for the spectators, carebear servers are the ones where everyone just stands arount emoting, killing ai, and hugging each other. ;p

it's all good though, i've played on them occasionally myself.


/wink

post #81 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire
Nothing will be like EQ because it was writing history in 1999-2001. Huge epic world, first thing exactly like it out there. Remember the first time you saw the bridges in the Karanas? Killed a hill giant? Killed a god? Man, it was fun.

To us at least. If you were 14 years old 2 years ago and started out with Wow, how awesome must it have been when you got to level 6 or whatever and entered Orgrimmar for the first time and see some huge level 60 with an Arcanite Reaper?

Wow is a great game, it wouldn't be so wildly successful if it weren't. It won't have that same feeling, because looking back things seem a lot better than what they were at the time.

Pathing bugs, the random nerfs, the quests that lead nowhere, the 15 hour camps, hell levels, all that stuff sucked and was a pain in the ass. Looking back though, all I can remember is how fun it was running from SG's/LJ/spectres in oasis, killing orcs in HHP/HHK, pulling GIBS and random frenzy frogs to BR, etc., but I also remember how terrible it was having to wait 6 hours to get a group at AM/Lord/Hand or Frenzy or killing random stuff in Sol B.
post #82 of 100
Jasco and Douglas Fir: so choice.
post #83 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by raley
To us at least. If you were 14 years old 2 years ago and started out with Wow, how awesome must it have been when you got to level 6 or whatever and entered Orgrimmar for the first time and see some huge level 60 with an Arcanite Reaper?

Wow is a great game, it wouldn't be so wildly successful if it weren't. It won't have that same feeling, because looking back things seem a lot better than what they were at the time.

Pathing bugs, the random nerfs, the quests that lead nowhere, the 15 hour camps, hell levels, all that stuff sucked and was a pain in the ass. Looking back though, all I can remember is how fun it was running from SG's/LJ/spectres in oasis, killing orcs in HHP/HHK, pulling GIBS and random frenzy frogs to BR, etc., but I also remember how terrible it was having to wait 6 hours to get a group at AM/Lord/Hand or Frenzy or killing random stuff in Sol B.

I see your point but guess I need to clarify/refine mine. I am not saying the joy of discovery for said 14 year old will be less than it was for me in 1999 (and I was twice 14!).

The difference is now we have a huge experienced, and often jaded, player base. There are a plethora of developers that have been around the block on this a few times and there are new business models. Back in 1999 it was new to everybody. Sure there had been some pre-runners to EQ, but nothing quite like EQ had been out there before. I read Verant's initial business model called for some tiny number of subscriptions, nothing like what developed. Sometimes the players (like my guild) understood the game and its issues better than the devs!

Now I am not saying WoW is not a well done game. I have my problems with WoW, such as it being far too easy to level, but then again, level 45 in original release EQ and even RoK, was insane. Ditto 54 in RoK after the level cap. However, you knew you had a quality player by the time you got to the then current major encounters. With WoW any fanboi can hit 60 and run around like an idiot in MC. Speaking of MC, there is no way I should have been doing the MC grind three months after release. That was the top encounter in the game. I quit after farming MC for six months; it was just too easy.

So I agree the joy of discovery is the joy of discovery. However, when you just know you are part of history being written, it puts a different feel to it. 1999-2001, MMPORPG history was being made. I think for current MMP history, you have to look to second life. I checked it out and it is not my cup of tea, but I realize when a social phenomena is happening and it is in SL right now.

Lastly, yes WoW is wildly successful. So were Pet Rocks. Do not mistake popular culture acceptance for quality!
post #84 of 100
I can agree with that. However, the people at the top of Wow are also a part of history. To be the first in something with that many people and instances to level the playing field can be an accomplishment (even if it is only by a day).

To me the biggest difference between wow and eq are the companies that make them. Blizzard is just so much better than Verant/SOE. The lack of dev communication killed me in EQ. There were people up to a year after release that didn't even know what stats were better for their characters (remember warriors with those bracers from the Hand in lguk and black pearl rings/earrings?). I quit after kunark, but I've heard about some pretty bad cockblocks from the devs as well (Rathe Council).

Wow has had its share of problems, and they are slow with putting out content, but when they put out content it is good stuff. Heck, their original beta was more bug-free and polished than some of EQ's expansions.
post #85 of 100
Man, the Rathe Council, aka tikimen.

What a mind blowing encounter. Nothing like that last burn where you nuke the ones locked down in the cave. I hated that thing, lol.

I hope something comes out that brings the best of WoW and the best of EQ. I am not holding my breath to hard though, the genre got majorly dumbed down to appeal to the fanboi's. It's a good business model IMO and I do not blame the devs, there are far, far, far more fanboi's then people willing and able to progress through the old school EQ stuff.
post #86 of 100
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire
I see your point but guess I need to clarify/refine mine. I am not saying the joy of discovery for said 14 year old will be less than it was for me in 1999 (and I was twice 14!).

The difference is now we have a huge experienced, and often jaded, player base. There are a plethora of developers that have been around the block on this a few times and there are new business models. Back in 1999 it was new to everybody. Sure there had been some pre-runners to EQ, but nothing quite like EQ had been out there before. I read Verant's initial business model called for some tiny number of subscriptions, nothing like what developed. Sometimes the players (like my guild) understood the game and its issues better than the devs!

Now I am not saying WoW is not a well done game. I have my problems with WoW, such as it being far too easy to level, but then again, level 45 in original release EQ and even RoK, was insane. Ditto 54 in RoK after the level cap. However, you knew you had a quality player by the time you got to the then current major encounters. With WoW any fanboi can hit 60 and run around like an idiot in MC. Speaking of MC, there is no way I should have been doing the MC grind three months after release. That was the top encounter in the game. I quit after farming MC for six months; it was just too easy.

So I agree the joy of discovery is the joy of discovery. However, when you just know you are part of history being written, it puts a different feel to it. 1999-2001, MMPORPG history was being made. I think for current MMP history, you have to look to second life. I checked it out and it is not my cup of tea, but I realize when a social phenomena is happening and it is in SL right now.

Lastly, yes WoW is wildly successful. So were Pet Rocks. Do not mistake popular culture acceptance for quality!

You're right about the jaded playerbase (that's why i haven't played in 2 years), although there's something else as well.

When I played my first MMORPG, I didn't know how to play them. I was a newbie on darktide and i didn't know how to level quickly, although getting constantly ganked by higher-levels turned me in to a powergamer pretty fast. On the whole I was pretty inefficient for my first 20 levels.

What changed from when EQ first released (or anyone's first MMORPG), is that hardcore players have emerged. Nobody goes in to a game just to play it anymore. It's become a big competition. Uber guilds didn't exist before EQ and there probably weren't a lot of people that went in to EQ1 thinking "omg I need to hit 50 asap b/c I don't want to be left in the dust."

When guilds start a game today, you can be sure there will be a level race. It's unavoidable, and although I'm sure there were some people that did this to a certain extent in EQ1, it wasn't as organized or planned for. I leveled very quickly in AC1, but I hadn't planned on it. It just sort of happened.

These days however, when I go in to new game, I'm usually doing so competitively, to be the best, the most notorious pk, the first, etc. Every other hard-core player does the same thing. Because it's a competition, right from the start we tear apart the mechanics of a game, figure out the most efficient ways to do everything, parse DPS logs, learn to exploit pathing bugs, figure out the ideal character build (which is why beta is so key), the best places to level, and on and on. Hell, I'm not even playing EQ2 competitively or with any of my guildmates but I just can't help myself. I started sunday afternoon, and by monday night I was lvl 19 (ask me how much I slept).

As a playerbase, we seem to have come to the conclusion that the game isnt' worth playing until you get to the end game. For raiders this means downing Gods or dragons and for Pkers that means capping out so you can focuse on pking. WoW is the ultimate culmination of this. They've developed a game that takes you by the hand, step-by-step (and it's just as gay as the new kids song!), until you've reached the end.

Accomplishments in EQ meant something I think. In WoW accomplishments were just a matter of time (and not much of it) and numbers. EQ had end game encounters that to this day haven't been matched, even though so many games have been able to look back upon it. Ssra, RZ, Xegony, PoW, etc. Each of those were unique encounters that required specific strategies or else you failed. From what i've seen of WoW, it's just a matter of putting in your time and sending enough people. The game almost plays itself.

The other thing about WoW is that it has taken the MM out of MMORPG. Instances have no fucking place in an mmorpg. If people want to run around in tiny little dungeons all to themselves, they should play Neverwinter Nights, not an mmorpg. Besides, I hate running around doing stupid little kill this, get that quests. I'd much rather grind it out in a cool dungeon with some friends. It's a lot more interactive.

That's a long way of saying that despite all our bitching at the time, we play for the challenge (whether PvP or Pve). EQ1 was challenging. AC1T was challenging. WoW wasn't. DAoC wasn't. AC2 wasn't. EQ2, my vote is still out on. When there's no challenge, we lose interest quickly. EQ1, despite it's faults >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WoW

Btw, didn't Thott go work for blizzard towards the end of WoW beta? or was that the gm of FoH? You'd think they'd have learned something.

So much for a quick response. I need to get back to work ;p
post #87 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek
You're right about the jaded playerbase (that's why i haven't played in 2 years), although there's something else as well...

I'm sorry, but you are wrong.

First of all, you are not the average player. Of the 6 million+ who play wow, there are probably 60,000 people like you (~1%). Those are the 1% who will be on top of the latest content, will be testing and finding bugs in new content, will be completing the latest dungeons and farming them while waiting for the next huge dungeon/dragon/whatever to come out.

It sounds to me like you did not play wow very extensively. In fact, the general sentiment is quite different from what you are saying. If you read the Wow boards, many of the casual players who are new to the MMO genre are upset about the new high-level dungeons and raids that are released. They want MORE quests, hand-holding, battlegrounds, etc. That is the part of the game they enjoyed, and they want to do more of it once they reach level 60.

This is what I think is so great about Wow, the fact that it is so diverse. If you are into pvp you can pvp very easily. Pvp in EQ was pretty much non-existent, there were a couple of servers and that it. There are tons of pvp servers in Wow, and you can Pve or Pvp on those servers to your heart's content. Even on pve servers, you can still do the battlegrounds. In the latest patch/expansion they are adding a ladder with ELO-type ratings for 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and 5v5 pvp - how awesome is that?

If none of that stuff interests you, then you can do the latest dungeons which they are constantly making and testing. You can get that great loot through Pve or you can get it through pvp awards. Sure the game is not perfect - what is - but there are a lot of options for a lot of different types of players, and it is successful, as the numbers show.

Second of all, on instances, you are just flat out wrong. Don't seriously sit here and tell me that non-instanced content is a good thing. That in EQ you had fun sitting for 3 hours waiting for a group because once you reach level 40+ there are about 8 camps you can do, which is 40 characters, and there are 300 level 40+ characters online at any given time (or whatever the numbers are). "Immersion", to me, is a pretty dumb concept. It is a game, everyone knows that, once you get to level 60 in Wow you still know all the top guys who are into doing what you like to do. If you are in a high-level guild then you know all the other guys in high-level guilds. If you are in a mid-level guild, or low-level guild, or a pvper, likewise.

There is still competition, and while it is different (i.e. winning margins are no longer weeks but rather days) it is still there if you are into that.

Instances are great though. I can flat out tell you right now, that Wow would not be where it is today if it didn't have instanced content. And while interacting in dungeons with other groups of people and having to camp stuff and compete for spawns or whatever might sound "alright" in theory, in practice it sucks, which is why it is gone and probably won't be coming back.
post #88 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek
Btw, didn't Thott go work for blizzard towards the end of WoW beta? or was that the gm of FoH? You'd think they'd have learned something.


The head of FoH, Furor, works for blizzard. As does the one-time guild leader of Legacy of Steel, Tigole. I believe Tigole is in charge of the "high-end" content. They do a good job.

If you remember Furor's huge rants, a lot of it was on the stupidity, lack of communication, cock blocks, etc. of Verant/SOE. I think Blizzard has done a pretty good job so far. While you will not pick that up if you read the Wow forums (full of whining idiots), and while there have been a few disappointments and cockblocks, communication has generally been good, and decisions have been fairly logical. Quality is good, although timing is a bit slow, but what can you do?
post #89 of 100
Raley and Geek:

You are both correct.

First, I quickly came to view end game content as the only thing worth doing in EQ. I played with with adults, we had a rigourous raiding schedule (which actually let you play less time than many so-called "casual" players), and we played at the back of the envelope for years. I am not saying my way of playing was "right" but it was how and why I played. I admit it, I got a kick out of having a BL with more HP and AC than most warriors. Most people did not play like that.

Raley, you are correct. WoW is where it is due to instancing and spoon feeding the vast majority of the player base. Fanboi's. Like I said above, the business model that panders to them is a smart one, just like class warfare in politics, the also-rans and wannabes always far, far outnumber the motivated few. If I was planning to invest in an MMPORPG I would want 90% of dev time devoted to the great unwashed or the online gaming population.
post #90 of 100
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by raley
The head of FoH, Furor, works for blizzard. As does the one-time guild leader of Legacy of Steel, Tigole. I believe Tigole is in charge of the "high-end" content. They do a good job.

If you remember Furor's huge rants, a lot of it was on the stupidity, lack of communication, cock blocks, etc. of Verant/SOE. I think Blizzard has done a pretty good job so far. While you will not pick that up if you read the Wow forums (full of whining idiots), and while there have been a few disappointments and cockblocks, communication has generally been good, and decisions have been fairly logical. Quality is good, although timing is a bit slow, but what can you do?

Who thought that on a clothing forum we'd have so many mmo geeks? ;p

Furor... I had forgotten his name, but ya that's him. SoE was pretty bad about listening to anyone back in the day, but they've taken huge strides with how they're managing EQ2. I guess competition does that. I could list numerous things where they've decided to implement something but then didn't due to player uproar (even on the usually neglected PvP servers), usually for the better, although I'd still prefer to have XP loss like old EQ. They don't hit you hard enough on death. If nothing else though, I'm glad the threat of WoW is making people listen to their players, because despite what the devs think they know about their games, the high-end players usually know a hell of a lot more.

EQ2 really deserves an increased playerbase imo but it may be too late for that unless they can do some sort of re-launch. I think they should have capitalized on the opportunity they had to get it on to more store shelves with the new expansion, because it really is quite impressive from a content point of view, and it's now quite welcoming to the new player.

I just REALLY REALLY hope that all future games do not cater to the WoW type of audience. People have to realize that if it weren't for the huge popularity of the Warcraft franchise, it never would have been so big. You could have had the exact same game set in a different world setting and it wouldn't have been a fraction as popular. A HUGE portion of WoW's playerbase is asian. They're all die-hard blizzard fans. Hey I thought it was gonna be great too, but then I have experience with games that are actually good and have a bit of depth to them ;p
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