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what makes Seven for all mankind and Hudson jeans so expensive? - Page 7

post #91 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuitMyself View Post
$1,200 for ONE pair of jeans? Are you insane?
Indeed, however I would also say the exact same thing about paying $4,000+ for ONE suit, or paying $1,000+ for a SINGLE pair of shoes. A fool and his money are soon parted.
post #92 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDT View Post
Indeed, however I would also say the exact same thing about paying $4,000+ for ONE suit, or paying $1,000+ for a SINGLE pair of shoes. A fool and his money are soon parted.
Completely different things. It takes 2 specialists (a cutter and tailor) on an OK western salary equivalent about half a week to make that bespoke suit, plus material costs. It takes one cobbler on an OK western salary several days to make that pair or shoes, plus materials. It takes some mega factory the equivalent of 30 man-minutes to make that $1200 pair of jeans. The only reason everything appears cheap is because of either mechanisation or 3rd world worker exploitation. A fool and his money is right.. If you had someone on a banker's salary making that suit or shoes, you'd be adding another 0 to those prices.
post #93 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDT View Post
Indeed, however I would also say the exact same thing about paying $4,000+ for ONE suit, or paying $1,000+ for a SINGLE pair of shoes.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laphroaig View Post
Completely different things.

It takes 2 specialists (a cutter and tailor) on an OK western salary equivalent about half a week to make that bespoke suit, plus material costs.

It takes one cobbler on an OK western salary several days to make that pair or shoes, plus materials.

It takes some mega factory the equivalent of 30 man-minutes to make that $1200 pair of jeans.

The only reason everything appears cheap is because of either mechanisation or 3rd world worker exploitation. A fool and his money is right.. If you had someone on a banker's salary making that suit or shoes, you'd be adding another 0 to those prices.

This.

$1200, sounds like you own Bijan jeans.
post #94 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post
This. $1200, sounds like you own Bijan jeans.
Exactly. Not all jeans are mass produced in Chinese mega-factories. There are jeans produced with as much time, care and attention to detail as those $4000 suits and $1000 shoes. Sent from Tapatalk.
post #95 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
[...] I doubt I'd have signed up for SF at all if MC was structured that way.

MC is structured? Maybe, like Groundhog Day is structured, but other than that...
post #96 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOBD View Post
MC is structured? Maybe, like Groundhog Day is structured, but other than that...
MC is kind of a mess if you actually read it every day, but for searching? Worlds better than the mega-threads. Really though, what's the point of the mega-threads? Telling noobs to "search more" then expecting them to read 10k posts seems cruel. Maybe I'm just used to threaded forums and can't see the advantages.
post #97 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by laphroaig View Post
It takes some mega factory the equivalent of 30 man-minutes to make that $1200 pair of jeans.

By the same token, you can buy a suit that took some guy 30 minutes to make. I'm guessing that you are being deliberately provocative, but you come off sounding ignorant.

The most expensive denim is painstakingly difficult and time consuming to work with. Yarn can combed and carded by hand, and dipped and sundried several dozen times before it is woven on specialized machines specifically designed to mimic century old techniques. The output from these machines is very low, and the amount of denim made can be extremely low. On selvedge denim jeans, it can take a lot of yarns of denim to make a pair, because you have more waste if you need selvedge outseams.

A lot of the more coveted denim is made in extremely small batches, which incurs a significant upcharge.

A recent WSJ article quoted the labor for manufacture at $9, but for a pair of artisanal denim jeans, the cost can be considerably higher, especially if made in Japan. Definitely not as high as for a great or even good suit, but then again, a really good suit costs about 10 times as much.

Finishes can cost as much as $40. This is a major expense, obviously, and $40 post manufacture treatments are rare, but a $16-20 wash is fairly commonplace on the better jeans. Yes, you can tell the difference.

I recently saw a pair of Carhartt's "high end" jeans, which they tried to retail at around $65. Terrible cut aside, the materials, make and finishing were all truly atrocious. Brands like J. Crew and The GAP can do better for less because of the huge volume, but even then, they are forced to take obvious shortcuts.

Now, a $1200 pair of jeans (and the only jeans I've seen in that range are either made by luxury companies, who make "jeans" out of non-standard materials like cashmere, or are the jeans by Rby45RPM with lots of extra bells and whistles (silver rivets and buttons - completely unnecessary, pocket bags made from the most expensive shirting fabric, and so on.) However, I've seen plenty of $400-$500 jeans, and even $800 jeans, that are not marked up as much as a high end RTW suit.
post #98 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
MC is kind of a mess if you actually read it every day, but for searching? Worlds better than the mega-threads.

Really though, what's the point of the mega-threads? Telling noobs to "search more" then expecting them to read 10k posts seems cruel. Maybe I'm just used to threaded forums and can't see the advantages.

I understand threads can get too big. But every day I see dozens of new threads about the same topics. I'd like to see more general threads, like the Shirt Porn, Soporific Ties and Unfunded Liabilities threads. A lot of information is scattered across the forum in threads that disappear after a few days. That way, the information doesn't get better. It just gets repeated and probably gets worse, because the 'experts' are not answering the same questions anymore.

If there were more 'expert threads' you could refer those threads to new posters. I think there's not enough cross-referring and linking on the forum at all. It isn't a web with interconnections, it's just one long thread that goes round and round.
post #99 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patek View Post
Many people have their particular fetishes. Mine are clothes, watches, and cars. It bugs the crap out of me that people buy a $5k suit and then throw on a damn Rolex diving watch.
It's human nature that we invest more in things we're interested in and less in what we're not. It irks me when people are wasting good money on jeans so-called "premium" jeans and then defending the purchase to people who know jeans or to others that don't. They just don't know better.

I'm not trying to mock or belittle people, rather, I'm trying to air out some personal confusion. I understand that if my world was Brioni and Brioni sold jeans marketed for people that bought Brioni, then I would assume that if Brioni was good then their jeans would be, too. I'd be buying strictly based on label, or because it wouldn't require any research or real shopping around on my part, or both. The same can be said as to why 7, Hudson, etc. is popular on here: they see what everyone is buying (brand recognition) or what's readily available and that's enough for them.

But people here like clothes and are members of a forum that specifically deals with jeans so... why not spend a minute to see if they're really getting the best for their money?

I wear suits as much as some people on here may wear jeans so I wouldn't expect them to know better. I also wouldn't expect them to immediately see the worth in investing in a garment they'll hardly wear. I just hope that maybe they'll question why their closet has $2k suits, $500 shoes, and $20 jeans; or why they pride themselves on buying so as to stand apart from the standard dreck and yet accept the dreck in their casual life.

Good jeans don't need to be expensive and they're a lot easier to figure out than formal wear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOBD View Post
I understand threads can get too big. But every day I see dozens of new threads about the same topics. I'd like to see more general threads, like the Shirt Porn, Soporific Ties and Unfunded Liabilities threads. A lot of information is scattered across the forum in threads that disappear after a few days. That way, the information doesn't get better. It just gets repeated and probably gets worse, because the 'experts' are not answering the same questions anymore.

If there were more 'expert threads' you could refer those threads to new posters. I think there's not enough cross-referring and linking on the forum at all. It isn't a web with interconnections, it's just one long thread that goes round and round.
I agree. It's nice to have the answers you're looking for confined to a single compact location, but I don't quite understand how it's easier or harder to search for the same information versus a larger thread. Google doesn't really discriminate when I use keywords.

But the biggest problem I see is the one you touched upon. In fact, just look at this thread. If the OP had been posted in a jeans question thread, it would have been answered in a post or two instead of gathering several pages of misinterpreted information passed off as fact.
post #100 of 178
[quote=LA Guy;4663749]
The most expensive denim is painstakingly difficult and time consuming to work with. Yarn can combed and carded by hand, and dipped and sundried several dozen times before it is woven on specialized machines specifically designed to mimic century old techniques. The output from these machines is very low, and the amount of denim made can be extremely low. On selvedge denim jeans, it can take a lot of yarns of denim to make a pair, because you have more waste if you need selvedge outseams.

A lot of the more coveted denim is made in extremely small batches, which incurs a significant upcharge. ]

Hi

I am curious to know where the "best quality" denim comes from. Not talking about cut or fit....just as I do not get a lot of things in the MC forum, I do not get a lot about jeans but still want to improve what I have in my terms. What I am after (and for all things not just jeans) is better quality that will be able to be tailored to fit. Things like old looms, or made to perform like old looms that are slow do not matter to me but the actual material does.


For instance is much denim made from extra long staple cotton? Since it is such a small percentage of cotton grown I would have to think very little would go to denim but would THAT make a difference? Or what about just higher quality normal cotton, does any manufacturer stand out? Do many use pima/sea island type cottons for jeans?
post #101 of 178
It might be easier if I explain my thought process when I see a new pair of jeans sitting on a rack from an unfamiliar brand and am trying to determine its "quality." Let's also assume that the pair I'm talking about is raw or a "dark wash" without any distressing or noticeable washing: -Color: Not all denim is straight dark blue. Certain mills are known for using specific indigo blends to achieve their signature color. Sometimes you get a flat, uniform "blueberry" tone (in the case of Levi's with their LVC line) or deeper, richer blues that get in brands like RRL or Flat Head. Some brands even give off reddish or greenish hues or grey tones because of the kind of indigo used. To me, the level of complexity adds to a denim's worth but ultimately it's in the eye of the beholder. Just because I find LVC to be very simple and straight-forward does not decrease its worth in the eyes of many, however, their process isn't as complicated or expensive as other manufactures so they tend to be cheaper and more readily available. Cheaper denim tends to be characteristically uninteresting. To give you an example, when I see pair of cheap (under $100) pair of selvage jeans from a mall brand, they almost always look exactly like each other. (Click the Styleforum Gallery link at the top of the page and go through photos from a couple of different brands to get a better idea of what I mean.) -Hand: Does the denim feel like cashmere or sandpaper? Does it feel substantial or thin? Light or heavy? If you put a pair of washed $30 Levi's in one hand and a pair of $150 Diesels, you'd notice a difference in weight, softness, and thickness. Now if you put the Diesels in one hand and a pair of RRLs in another, you'd notice that the latter felt more substantial, soft but from the cotton itself and not from a wash, and heavier. Heavier, softer, or thicker don't inherently mean "better" solely as descriptors, but it puts together a picture. It's a lot like describing the taste of something; it isn't as good a personal experience but it puts you in the ballpark of expectations. -Weight: Usually, just buy lifting up the leg of a pair of jeans I can estimate how many ounces the denim is. As a general rule of thumb, the lighter stuff is cheaper or of lesser quality. 9oz is considered very light (almost chambray), 11-13oz is what most people associate with mainstream jeans, 14-15oz is more substantial but still comfortable, 16oz-28oz is thought of as "heavy" because once you get up around 18-21oz it can be very thick and rigid (although this is case-by-case and fabric dependent.) -Irregularities or "slub": "Slub" can describe the bumpy or hairy texture or it can also describe the streaky or uneven nature of the denim caused by loom chatter. Denim doesn't need to be slubby to be "quality" but it serves as a signal flare that you're looking at something unique. It can also be a sign that fabric itself isn't comprised of regular cotton; for example, Sugar Cane blends sugar cane fibers in with the cotton. When you add the sum of these parts, you have the makings for quality denim. In terms of cotton, several brands do use Pima but Zimbabwe is probably the most-used "high end" cotton. Zimbabwe, being that it is extra long, is considered to be softer than standard cotton as well as more absorbent of the dye and stronger. Quite a few quality Japanese labels use it: Kicking Mule, Real Japan Blues, Momotaro, Iron Heart, etc. Keep in mind that denim softness isn't a top priority; comfort comes from the fit itself and softer denim will have a tendency to be weaker, which is rather counter-intuitive considering the original purpose of denim.
post #102 of 178
Many thanks.


I have a lot of looking to do.
post #103 of 178
The hand and durability of the denim will depend on many factors, probably most importantly, all other things being equal, cotton origin and weaving methods used. For example, I haven't really worn my 22 ounce Drybones jeans as much as I'd like, because the Texas and (I think) North Carolina blend, combined with the weaving technique, makes them super rigid, and I'm a pussy. On the other hand, 21 ounce Ironhear jeans, while heavy, feel much more comfortable.

I think that RRL is probably best quality jean at the $220 price, and it's reasonably easy to find as well. Not only that, but it is 13.5 ounces denim, which I think hits the sweet spot between feeling too light and flimsy and feeling really heavy. Also, the patterns are really good, and the cuts work well for a variety of body types.
post #104 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
Now, a $1200 pair of jeans (and the only jeans I've seen in that range are either made by luxury companies, who make "jeans" out of non-standard materials like cashmere, or are the jeans by Rby45RPM with lots of extra bells and whistles (silver rivets and buttons - completely unnecessary, pocket bags made from the most expensive shirting fabric, and so on.) However, I've seen plenty of $400-$500 jeans, and even $800 jeans, that are not marked up as much as a high end RTW suit.
$600 Borrelli or Brioni jeans are just as ridiculous as their $9000 suits or $1200 seven for all man kind jeans. Even if I think it goes against the aesthetic, at least $800 hank dyed natural indigo jeans that were dyed by hand by a specialist can justify their price. PS. I despise artificial distressing and everything it represents in clothing, furniture, and everything else.
post #105 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by laphroaig View Post
$600 Borrelli or Brioni jeans are just as ridiculous as their $9000 suits or $1200 seven for all man kind jeans. Even if I think it goes against the aesthetic, at least $800 hank dyed natural indigo jeans that were dyed by hand by a specialist can justify their price.

Can we restrict our criticisms to the realm of reality please? I've never seen 7FAM jeans with a price tag over $295. I guarantee they've never sold jeans for more than 400, and AFAIK none even over 300, whereas Rock & Republic and True Religion price jeans up to the low 400s.
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