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Am I crazy for wanting to lease a top-of-the-line 3-series out of college? - Page 10

post #136 of 228
There is so much bad advice in this thread, I hope GF is taking everything with a grain of salt. I'm disappointed Pio hasn't shown up to debunk the leasing misstatements. Generally I'm in agreement with username79's line of reasoning in this thread. I don't want to hand out advice here because I don't have much to add at this point and it seems GF has changed his tune but I would point out that to me the most salient information was that GF wasn't going to be driving the car much. Leasing a car makes a lot more sense when you're relatively close to the number of miles you are paying for - it sucks to pay for 10k a year and only drive 3k. I do want to point out a couple of things to the advice givers who seem to be missing the point and should probably reconsider their admonitions: 1. No maintenance costs on a BMW the first 4 years - therefore none over the course of a lease. Similarly - gas will be roughly the same for t he BMW as most other cars. We're not talking huge dollars here, particularly since GF said he won't be driving on a daily basis. 2. Lots of people (myself included) would hesitate to own a BMW outside of the warranty period because maintenance can quickly add up. Just look at the BMW horror stories thread. You could get a used BMW that's screwed together great and only requires minimum maintenance, or you could be like everyone I know with a BMW that routinely spends large sums for things that are "never supposed to break." 3. Why do people think leasing is so bad? $590 for a month for that car is a pretty good deal - and he'd only be on the hook for 27 months. I don't know if that 590 includes an amortized down payment or if that assumes you're putting $$ down as well - GF really need to tell us the whole story to get a sense as to what you were planning. 4. Everyone who was arguing based on the retail price of the car being high should be disregarded. The purchase price by and large doesn't matter to GF - only the amount he's paying to rent the car for 27 months. 5. To the guy who said he would aim to save 75% of his take home - for GF that would mean limiting spending to around $1k a month (see norcaltransplant's analysis above). How is $1k in Boston a reasonable goal? Even $2k a month. If GF could save $1k a month at this point, that would be great. Maybe you were pissing in the wind and saying that people who make 300k can easily live on 25-50% of their take home, I don't know - but clearly it doesn't apply to someone making 75k in Boston. 6. GF will have plenty of friends blowing $600 a month on drugs, booze, food, clothes, etc. If he forgoes all of that for a car, more power to him. If he wants to have it all, obviously finances will be tight with the car. Everyone has to make their own decisions. 7. Without calling anyone out in particular - if you are reading this thread and don't understand how tax withholding works, please make sure you have a good accountant, and read this: http://www.consumerismcommentary.com...-on-bonus-pay/
post #137 of 228
Thread Starter 
^^ Thanks. As per #3, the $590 is the cost to lease for 27 months and includes the tax in it as well. The downfall is that I was a complete dumbass who went in to the dealership without researching how to negotiate lease payments (because I wasn't planning on leasing a car anyway; only went in to test-drive some cars and fell in love), so I ended up with the $590 with a $8K downpayment, which is laughably ridiculous lol. I'm not 100% sure, but I think with 0 down and the multiple security deposit trick, the real lease price would be around $700ish per month. Of course, over a 27 month period, that's still less out of my pocket compared to the $590 + $8K down. Psychologically, though, I think it's not smart to spend $700 on a car alone. My rent would be around that price and that just seems wrong. Also, my insurance would be around $200 a month, and gas should be around $100-150. So at least $1,000 a month on a car that's not completely necessary is just irresponsible. I want to do it with all my heart, but I think after the first month or two, I'd come to hate the monthly payments. I'm still debating as to whether I should buy a cheap, used car for less than $10K, or if I should lease a cheaper car that would cost me $350 a month. Maybe I'll just lease the 2012 civic. My friend is leasing one for $169 a month which is pretty cheap. It's a solid car too with great gas mileage. I'd hope to get it in a manual if possible (doubtful).
post #138 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post
I find it amusing that the OP is getting killed for considering a lease payment that is around the going SF rate of a pair of Lobbs or EG. Whats the difference between "blowing" your hard earned cash on either passion?

IMO, because owning > leasing. OP is getting a nice starting salary. When he receives his first paycheck, he can go to the store and get a pair of Lobbs and own them. They are within his budget. The 335i is clearly not. He just can't afford the car right now, without having to opt for leasing. I doubt anyone on this board would vote against getting a 335i for 60k and pay for it right away.
post #139 of 228
Ahh, didn't see the 8k in your OP but thought someone else mentioned it. That's equiv to an extra 3 hundo a month in payments, so you'd be looking at close to 900 a month which is a different ballpark altogether. If you currently have an old A4 why not just stick with that for the next year and see how you feel once you have a bit more cushion? Whatever you do, make sure you figure out what will actually make you happy, as best you can, and don't base it on advice that doesn't apply to you. It's no more wasteful to spend $6k a year on a car than it is on wardrobe or partying, but only you will know what will make the most sense for you. I love cars, but don't drive much and live in a city so I've stuck with an SUV for the past dozen years that gets it done for me when I need it. Every time I think about getting a new car, which is often, I realize that in a number of circumstances I would still prefer my SUV and that it would be foolish to make a change given my current lifestyle. YMMV, etc. EDIT: Prince - I don't agree with you, and I am confident many others out there (calling Piobaire) would agree with me. Leasing is just another way of financing a vehicle, and I don't see the prize in "owning" a car. Many do not want to own a quickly depreciating asset which potentially has ever increasing maintenance requirements. Personally, I would only lease a German near-luxury vehicle because I would not want to own one outside the warranty period. People would have jumped all over GF is he said he was going to use 100% of his savings to outright purchase the car in cash. Moreover, if your salary increases significantly year to year (some do, some don't - pretty sure consultants get decent raises), then leasing may be a better option even for people who do want to "own" their car, because it means that in 3 years when their salary is say 30% higher and they have more savings built up, they can pay the residual and purchase the car at the end of lease. There is no shame in leasing.
post #140 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by eqpablon View Post
In a similar manner people here question anyone who would lease a car period. Generally they are correct, but they don't have the passion that the bimmerfest guys have about cars. The way the bimmerfesters don't understand what a goodyear welt means, or what constitutes soft tailoring; is pretty comparable to the average SFer not understanding subvented leases.

I lurk religiously at B-fest and Bimmerforums and the majority there drive E36's, E46's, E34's and E39's. There is not really a pro-lease attitude on those boards. I like the respect the old cars get over there.
post #141 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post
There is so much bad advice in this thread, I hope GF is taking everything with a grain of salt. I'm disappointed Pio hasn't shown up to debunk the leasing misstatements. Generally I'm in agreement with username79's line of reasoning in this thread.

I don't want to hand out advice here because I don't have much to add at this point and it seems GF has changed his tune but I would point out that to me the most salient information was that GF wasn't going to be driving the car much. Leasing a car makes a lot more sense when you're relatively close to the number of miles you are paying for - it sucks to pay for 10k a year and only drive 3k.

I do want to point out a couple of things to the advice givers who seem to be missing the point and should probably reconsider their admonitions:

1. No maintenance costs on a BMW the first 4 years - therefore none over the course of a lease.
Similarly - gas will be roughly the same for t he BMW as most other cars. We're not talking huge dollars here, particularly since GF said he won't be driving on a daily basis.

2. Lots of people (myself included) would hesitate to own a BMW outside of the warranty period because maintenance can quickly add up. Just look at the BMW horror stories thread. You could get a used BMW that's screwed together great and only requires minimum maintenance, or you could be like everyone I know with a BMW that routinely spends large sums for things that are "never supposed to break."

3. Why do people think leasing is so bad? $590 for a month for that car is a pretty good deal - and he'd only be on the hook for 27 months. I don't know if that 590 includes an amortized down payment or if that assumes you're putting $$ down as well - GF really need to tell us the whole story to get a sense as to what you were planning.

4. Everyone who was arguing based on the retail price of the car being high should be disregarded. The purchase price by and large doesn't matter to GF - only the amount he's paying to rent the car for 27 months.

5. To the guy who said he would aim to save 75% of his take home - for GF that would mean limiting spending to around $1k a month (see norcaltransplant's analysis above). How is $1k in Boston a reasonable goal? Even $2k a month. If GF could save $1k a month at this point, that would be great. Maybe you were pissing in the wind and saying that people who make 300k can easily live on 25-50% of their take home, I don't know - but clearly it doesn't apply to someone making 75k in Boston.

6. GF will have plenty of friends blowing $600 a month on drugs, booze, food, clothes, etc. If he forgoes all of that for a car, more power to him. If he wants to have it all, obviously finances will be tight with the car. Everyone has to make their own decisions.

7. Without calling anyone out in particular - if you are reading this thread and don't understand how tax withholding works, please make sure you have a good accountant, and read this: http://www.consumerismcommentary.com...-on-bonus-pay/

/thread
post #142 of 228
Thread Starter 
My A4 has been a pretty bad maintenance nightmare (thanks Dad for taking care of the expenses!) and it's a slow ass, automatic slushbox. If it were a stick shift I'd probably consider keeping it. But, again, it's not in the best shape and I'll have to spend a couple thousand to get it in tip-top shape.
post #143 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince View Post
I lurk religiously at B-fest and Bimmerforums and the majority there drive E36's, E46's, E34's and E39's. There is not really a pro-lease attitude on those boards. I like the respect the old cars get over there.

Try the "Ask a Dealer" and "European Delivery" sections of the board. I too participate in B-fest, and you won't find much info on leasing in the E36/E46 portion of the board. There is a reason why 75%ish of new BMW's are leased. Username79 and UnFalconable have summed up the reasons much better than I have.
post #144 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post
There is so much bad advice in this thread, I hope GF is taking everything with a grain of salt. I'm disappointed Pio hasn't shown up to debunk the leasing misstatements. Generally I'm in agreement with username79's line of reasoning in this thread.

And yet, you basically end up agreeing with all of this "bad advice" - that it's not a very smart economic decision.

I'm with you on the leasing vs. buying debate, especially if you want a new car. Personally, I think the sweet spot in the value curve is buying a low-mileage CPO car (BMW, Porsche, whatever) where you miss out on some of the steep part of the depreciation curve but still benefit from the warranty.
post #145 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by eqpablon View Post
Try the "Ask a Dealer" and "European Delivery" sections of the board. I too participate in B-fest, and you won't find much info on leasing in the E36/E46 portion of the board. There is a reason why 75%ish of new BMW's are leased. Username79 and UnFalconable have summed up the reasons much better than I have.

Of course there will be people on Bimmerfest who lease their BMW, but someone made a point as if the guys on Bimmerfest would understand the OP better than the folks on SF. I highly doubt that, since most active members on Bimmerfest drive older BMW's. The leasing crowd is definitely a minority there.

There is a reason 75%ish of new BMW's are leased. Many people are incapable of making sound financial decisions and cannot accept the fact that they cannot show of the newest BMW. That's probably why.
post #146 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince View Post
Of course there will be people on Bimmerfest who lease their BMW, but someone made a point as if the guys on Bimmerfest would understand the OP better than the folks on SF. I highly doubt that, since most active members on Bimmerfest drive older BMW's. The leasing crowd is definitely a minority there.

There is a reason 75%ish of new BMW's are leased. Many people are incapable of making sound financial decisions and cannot accept the fact that they cannot show of the newest BMW. That's probably why.

That may be partially true, but they are chosing BMW's over Merc's, Caddys, Audis, etc because of the subvented leases. Even tho they might make poor financial choices doesn't negate the fact that BMW does have the best lease programs in that market segment. 2011 M3 Convert's for mid $500, Z4 35IS's for mid $300's, etc etc. No one comes close.

Here are the only 3 stickies in the "Ask a Dealer" forum. They all deal with leasing, and they do a pretty good job explaining why in most, but not all cases, leasing a new BMW is actually cheaper than owning.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=150794

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=146090

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=547043
post #147 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince View Post
I lurk religiously at B-fest and Bimmerforums and the majority there drive E36's, E46's, E34's and E39's. There is not really a pro-lease attitude on those boards. I like the respect the old cars get over there.

This is because "car people" like to own cars. You can't do stuff to leased cars...even stuff that is removable (like some anti-sway bars or the eyelids that all of the vwvortex people were putting on their mkIV golfs/gtis) won't be done since you will just have to take it off and discard it a year later when your lease expires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eqpablon View Post
Try the "Ask a Dealer" and "European Delivery" sections of the board. I too participate in B-fest, and you won't find much info on leasing in the E36/E46 portion of the board. There is a reason why 75%ish of new BMW's are leased. Username79 and UnFalconable have summed up the reasons much better than I have.

75% of new BMWs are leased because they are status symbol cars (or douchebag cars). A majority of those people aren't buying them because of how awesome they drive but because it is what their neighbor has in their driveway. Nobody wants to have last year's status symbol and a lease lets you have a new one all of the time. If always having a shiny new car (and *always* having a car payment) is important to you, then leasing may be the right option--hey, this is styleforum...people want shiny pretty things.
post #148 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by eqpablon View Post
That may be partially true, but they are chosing BMW's over Merc's, Caddys, Audis, etc because of the subvented leases. Even tho they might make poor financial choices doesn't negate the fact that BMW does have the best lease programs in that market segment. 2011 M3 Convert's for mid $500, Z4 35IS's for mid $300's, etc etc. No one comes close.

Here are the only 3 stickies in the "Ask a Dealer" forum. They all deal with leasing, and they do a pretty good job explaining why in most, but not all cases, leasing a new BMW is actually cheaper than owning.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=150794

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=146090

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=547043

Hmm, interesting. Anyway, I'm not going to argue that BMW's leasing program is bad or something. I'm not that well informed when it comes to leasing terms and comparisons with other brands. Judging from those threads it could well be possible that leasing is cheaper than buying. But it is important to take into account that OP cannot buy the car, so he needs to lease. If he has 60k on a shelf, who am I to say that he should not lease. My point is that you should not get a car that is out of your reach and that leasing a car is always a bad idea compared to buying a car with the money you have right now. Maybe OP needs to settle for an E36 now. When his career gets going, who knows..Maybe in a few years time he makes enough cash to buy a new 335i and pay for it and then he should definitely do it.
post #149 of 228
As an aside, I do think the way the OP's question is framed is different from where the discussion has gone: "Am I crazy for wanting to lease a top-of-the-line 3-series out of college?" No, you're not crazy for wanting a top-of-the-line 3-series right out of college. That seems perfectly natural. I want a Ferrarri 599 GTO. You're crazy if you think it's a wise financial decision.
post #150 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post
This is because "car people" like to own cars. You can't do stuff to leased cars...even stuff that is removable (like some anti-sway bars or the eyelids that all of the vwvortex people were putting on their mkIV golfs/gtis) won't be done since you will just have to take it off and discard it a year later when your lease expires.



75% of new BMWs are leased because they are status symbol cars (or douchebag cars). A majority of those people aren't buying them because of how awesome they drive but because it is what their neighbor has in their driveway. Nobody wants to have last year's status symbol and a lease lets you have a new one all of the time. If always having a shiny new car (and *always* having a car payment) is important to you, then leasing may be the right option--hey, this is styleforum...people want shiny pretty things.

+1. I agree with what you've said here.
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