New 'top drawer' Church's range? - Page 9

Okay, just to be clear on this:

1. Foster's RTW shoes are made by Edward Green, Crockett & Jones and other firms. They are machine-made, Goodyear-welted shoes.

2. Foster's bespoke shoes are hand-welted.

3. On comparing shoes of the same basic style (oxfords) and approximately the same size, the bespoke shoes were noticeably lighter.

I did not check every size or style of shoe. I should've asked the staff why the bespoke shoes were lighter, but they were busy. Maybe I'll try again next week.


Not sure this is relevant, but a couple of examples of hand-welted shoes that aren't bespoke are:

Dimitri Gomez's "Bottier" line

Cleverley's Semi-Bespoke and Anthony Cleverley lines

although I think someone said Cleverley's Semi-Bespoke shoes aren't actually hand-welted, despite what their website says.


A couple of points on this:

1. I believe you said fit is subjective.

2. Doesn't this follow the same line as my logic? On the assumption that the bespoke shoe "fits", I said that its shape reduces waste. Isn't this basically the same as your points about a last for a manufactured shoe having to be chosen to accommodate a variety of heelseat widths and the wider last requiring a wider heelstack?


Well, I've now established (for myself at least, but anyone can pop into Foster's and see for themselves) that the bespoke shoe can be lighter. I don't know why, and it looks like you don't either.


I recognise that you've provided very detailed responses and I appreciate the time you've spent on this. My point about you possibly generalising isn't the steps/differences in the process of making a hand-made or machine-made shoe itself, but the extent to which those processes that you've outlined are actually followed on this side of the pond. Because if they aren't, then the detail isn't relevant.

For what it's worth, I don't think the points that you've made are wrong, which is why I suggested earlier that perhaps the hand-made and machine-made shoes we're talking about here may be somewhat different to what you usually see.

You know, I appreciate the fact that you see things different than I do. I also appreciate your restraint dealing with a rough old cob like myself who sometimes loses patience with those who clearly are, shall we say, less than fully conversant. But that said, until you sit down and make a pair of shoes; until you take apart manufactured shoes and bespoke shoes; until you make those choices and deal with the materials, tools, etc., all you can do is speculate--guess, in other words, and that's all subjective. As I have said...as I have stressed...all thing being equal...there's only so much that can be done to make a shoe lighter. There's only so many factors that can be altered. The materials and the tools (lasts, for example) impose constraints than cannot be trivialized or airily dismissed. For instance, heel stacks are either going to be made of leather or they are going to be made of something else--usually cardboard or synthetic, or maybe even wood. Leather will almost certainly be heavier. Goodyear welting will always be lighter than handwelting simply because there is no need for a heavier leather insole...an insole that will hold and bear up to the stress of inseam stitching. Manufactures are not stupid, they are not going to pay for the heavier insole leather when fiberboard or a thinner insole leather will work. Parenthetically, insole leather is sold by the pound--ie. by weight. Comfort may be subjective but fit is not. If a customer's plantar heel surface is a half inch narrower than the insole on which it is sitting, there is no fit. Period. Und so weiter. If you can show me two pairs of shoes--one Goodyear welted and one handwelted, both on identical lasts, both using identical upper leathers...all other things being equal. IOW...and the handwelted shoe is lighter, I will be amazed. I will be grateful to learn something new especially if I can also learn how the hell they did it. Now I'm not saying it can't be done, mind, but I think both makers would have to deviate from SOP and/or "good practices"to achieve that result. Until then...I'm from Missouri (the "Show Me" state)

For what it's worth, I've posted photos of my Church's Lamport in another thread.

Hi guys,

 

I'm a bit new to this forum, i've hovered rather than signed up and posted, so here goes my first. 

 

I've seen and handled the new top end Church's, both the lace up and monk strap. Some of the background behind them is post-manufacture they receive another 8-12 hours of hand polishing, hence the really rich look of the leather.

 

Shoe trees are included, and last specific rather than generic and i think both pairs are fiddleback soled.

 

The box comes with a separate compartment that includes a Church's apron, plus leatherbound polishing kit, including shoe horn, laces, polish, and a brush.

 

I can't remember the name of them but my Uncle's boutique stocks them, and he visits them regularly so is pretty clued up on what they do and they're product.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks. They don't seem (Churchs) to have a lot of shoe sellers carrying them FWIW.

I notice the Irish guys have the Cheaneys for GB325. http://www.robinsonsshoes.com/cheaney-shoes/cheaney-shoes-holyrood-imperial-collection-852-93-1569.php
Edited by meister - 2/8/12 at 4:20am