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Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Streetwear and Denim › The Official Artisanal "streetwear" footwear (boots, shoes, sandals) thread (Guidi, CCP, Augusta, M.A.+, M Moria, Carpe Diem, etc..)
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The Official Artisanal "streetwear" footwear (boots, shoes, sandals) thread (Guidi, CCP, Augusta, M.A.+, M Moria, Carpe Diem, etc..) - Page 1408

post #21106 of 22249
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

I suppose that it's the bolded part that I find to be untrue, and frankly, besides the point.  MA+ quality is not great if you look at it as construction, just as an example.  A random Chinese factory could do better.  In fact, if you look at basic metrics of "quality" like consistency between garments, the proper tension in the stitching, etc... MA+ is probably quite low on the list.  The construction of the garments, in particular, is stone aged.  The boots are cool, but the similarly lack much refinement of technique.  Does this detract from MA+ boots?  I would argue "No", because MA+ is not build on excellent craftsmanship, just as chantilly lace is not built for durability.

My point is that discussions of "quality" are essentially inconsequential here.  You value the product and the creative process.  Those are of such high importance that they drown out any justification based on "quality", for the most part.  Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.  

See i have had a good experience with most of my things footwear related so far so its hard for me to say that the quality is not part of it. I was looking for a well made zip boot, thick leather and built to last. I now have CCP, A1923, L0 and MA+, i really have not had any problems. I've heard horror stories but mine isn't one of em. Then again i don't hike in mine and do take care of things well. By no means do i baby anything.

I started out on SF with Alden, Trickers, C&J, AF, Carmina. Then i started wanting some cool zip boots. I tried varvatos, shoto, buttero , vaz rajan. Quickly i noticed that the construction and leather on shoto was sub par. varvatos became boring quick. Buttero i vouch for and is great, although i seldom wear it now.

My first exprience with a1923/ma+/guidi was going to archive and trying some on circa 2010. Everything had thick leather and was built pretty solid. Hence, i really wanted a pair of some "baller" boots. I spent months researching and looking but couldn't really get exactly what i want. Then i got a chance to get my first pair of a1923 in reverse calf. Boots had thick leather, tough sole. I remember Moo and i discussing how they were built like rocks.

I wore the backzips for a bit and then got kinda bored of them. They had a very bubbly toe box which i wasn't a fan of. These were ss12 backzips from a1923. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Eck and I pm a bit where we had a lot of talk about the mentioned brands and he introduced me to Tassos. At that point i have only seen some tornados and wasn't as familiar with CCP. I decided to take a plunge and picked up sbuc-ptc in color 10 tornados. One of my best purchases because i still wear them to this day and am wearing today. Boot was worn super hard because it was my only baller boot after i sold the a1923 backzip.

I don't think i picked anything up significant bootwise until the MA+ backzip in Dec 2014. I wore those super hard as well because i liked how they look with the folds better than new.

Anyways my point is that i have various boots to wear but the 2 i wore super hard haven't had any issues. As of late i did this with my a1923 dual zips and again quality is fine. However, that doesn't mean quality is better then CM brands. You can get better good quality shoes for cheaper sure. But you won't get well built zip boots from other makers in various interesting leathers. You will get some great cap toe lace ups which everyone does. Just look at r/goodyearwelt, every boot is a fucking captoe lace up...

You come to these brands to get out of "boring" and as Fok said get into experimental.
post #21107 of 22249
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
 

I suppose that it's the bolded part that I find to be untrue, and frankly, besides the point.  MA+ quality is not great if you look at it as construction, just as an example.  A random Chinese factory could do better.  In fact, if you look at basic metrics of "quality" like consistency between garments, the proper tension in the stitching, etc... MA+ is probably quite low on the list.  The construction of the garments, in particular, is stone aged.  The boots are cool, but the similarly lack much refinement of technique.  Does this detract from MA+ boots?  I would argue "No", because MA+ is not build on excellent craftsmanship, just as chantilly lace is not built for durability.

 

My point is that discussions of "quality" are essentially inconsequential here.  You value the product and the creative process.  Those are of such high importance that they drown out any justification based on "quality", for the most part.  Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.  

 

Perhaps we are! I admit that I find things like inconsistency between garments really off-putting (even as I find the garments themselves super awesome). And I think part of "the product" just *is* the care with which it's put together---I'm actually not sure what the distinction you're drawing between "quality" and "the product". (Also not sure what you mean by things like "refinement of technique" or stone-aged construction, tbh. I don't care about complexity or modernity of technique, so much as about whether the end result will hold up to the intended purpose---and I take it that one of the intended purposes of boots is to have feet put into them and then be walked around in.) It's slightly frustrating because I don't see how excellent relative craftsmanship is *excluded* by the MA+ aesthetic. That's not, as a matter of fact, what draws people (myself included) to his stuff but I think if you're going to make awesome shit, you should make it the best awesome shit you can. Maybe part of what makes it awesome precludes you from using techniques x,  y, and z and leads you to use technique d instead: fine, but do that well. If you're making an entire jacket out of one piece of fabric cut and folded just so, that gives you a big constraint on what else you can do, but what it doesn't give you, imo, is an excuse to shrug your shoulders and not care. (On the contrary! It should be a further challenge to make something even more awesome while laboring under this constraint. My username isn't "oulipien" for nothing!) I'm a very "elder days of art" sort of guy.

 

I should probably give it a rest, though!

post #21108 of 22249


Well, one more opinion on the matter here. I think there is no way to "win" this argument, because personal aesthetics end the emotions they invoke are impossible to factor out when discussing these issues. I agree that every maker should be doing his or her best job, and that implicit in asking super-high prices for these things is a promise that they will last a long time without trouble. This appears to be Oulipien's main point, and it seems legit to me. On the there hand, LA Guy seems to be pointing out a reality that some of us may not want to see: basically that we might sacrifice quality for exclusivity or style. And yeah, that sucks; shouldn't have to do it. On the other hand, I don't see too many people here reporting problems with build quality of their boots/shoes; maybe that's just not something people feel it's cool to talk about, but I don't sense that's the issue. Some of these designers are not builders. As Holger said to me about Maurizio Altieri, in contrast to  someone else we were discussing, "He is a shoemaker.  XXX is only a designer." I don't bring this up to stir the shit about Altieri, but more to reflect on the distinction Holger is making. High quality and good design can go together, but don't expect it to necessarily be true.

 

Btw, I checked out the thread LA Guy linked in his thread above, and those shoes (esp Main D'or) are amazing. Obviously thoughtfully and meticulously made, some of them at the rate of one or two pairs per month.  However, that super-clean, super-sharp aesthetic doesn't fit anywhere in my life, so I have to pass them by, even though i'd love to have a pair. 

All this gets me thinking I should have just stayed home and bought more Vibergs and Wescos. 

Of course, then I'd get bored and come right back here.

post #21109 of 22249
This has been a cool conversation to read. But... still... $3k for non-bespoke footwear? shog[1].gif
post #21110 of 22249

it costs that price because that is what people currently are willing to pay. if you don't like the price then its pretty simple, you don't have to buy it, for whatever reason that may be (i.e. its too expensive for non-bespoke footwear)

post #21111 of 22249

IMO the build quality and finishing on m_moria is better than Vass and St. Crispin's and is on par with some of the established Western bespoke makers: Gaziano Girling, Corthay, Stefano Bemer. I'm just talking about the build quality and level of finishing, CM bespoke will be more comfortable and a better fit because they're actually made for your specific feet. M_moria is also doing plenty of innovative things that some CM makers cannot do, it would be quite difficult to try and get a CM maker, even bespoke, to replicate the "hidden channel" welt stitching on M_moria, it's a ridiculously painstaking technique that I've never come across and helps give the A last goodyear boots their sleekness. 

post #21112 of 22249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moo View Post

This has been a cool conversation to read. But... still... $3k for non-bespoke footwear? shog[1].gif


I've never paid that much for m_moriabc, and I hope I never do. Again, for me, the aesthetic isn't there with bespoke stuff I've seen: too "fancy." Maurizio's boots walk the line nicely for me.

 

Don't know if they're still available or not, but that's a sweet price on your Layer-0 blood black officer boots. One of my favorite pairs. Leather is dee-lish. Sure you want to sell them?

post #21113 of 22249
Quote:
Originally Posted by docdocgs View Post

Layer-0 blood black officer boots... Leather is PSY- dee-lish.

Top w/ Devoa knit silk and bottom w/ Zam's 1960s British dead stock cotton minimalist DNA trousers, overlocked and object dyed.
post #21114 of 22249
Cool boots cheers.gif
post #21115 of 22249
Quote:
Originally Posted by docdocgs View Post


I've never paid that much for m_moriabc, and I hope I never do. Again, for me, the aesthetic isn't there with bespoke stuff I've seen: too "fancy." Maurizio's boots walk the line nicely for me.

Don't know if they're still available or not, but that's a sweet price on your Layer-0 blood black officer boots. One of my favorite pairs. Leather is dee-lish. Sure you want to sell them?

They're enjoying someone else's company already.
post #21116 of 22249

Has anyone had the Lost&Found beer?

post #21117 of 22249
that's a fucking ridiculous price for beer
post #21118 of 22249
Umm did I really just read that in this thread
post #21119 of 22249
Quote:
Originally Posted by nahneun View Post

that's a fucking ridiculous price for beer

thats it, Baller Beer spin off thread needed.

post #21120 of 22249
there's already an official beer thread in the culture section under social life, food & drink, and travels
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