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Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Streetwear and Denim › The Official Artisanal "streetwear" footwear (boots, shoes, sandals) thread (Guidi, CCP, Augusta, M.A.+, M Moria, Carpe Diem, etc..)
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The Official Artisanal "streetwear" footwear (boots, shoes, sandals) thread (Guidi, CCP, Augusta, M.A.+, M Moria, Carpe Diem, etc..) - Page 1407

post #21091 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by newp View Post
 

How Lobb/Green are better than m_moria custom orders? Have I missed some other good CM brand besides Lobb/Green?

Those, are good RTW shoes.  They are also starter drugs, and also, only cost like $1500K, maybe $1.8K for top shelf MTO, which, while exorbitantly expensive by nearly any standard, is not quoite rich enough for some of you.  So, I will introduce you to bespoke shoes from Japan, in particular, are well above that, in both materials and quality of make and finish.  Check out here: http://www.styleforum.net/t/343005/japanese-shoes-bespoke-rtw-super-thread

post #21092 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
 

Those, are good RTW shoes.  They are also starter drugs, and also, only cost like $1500K, maybe $1.8K for top shelf MTO, which, while exorbitantly expensive by nearly any standard, is not quoite rich enough for some of you.  So, I will introduce you to bespoke shoes from Japan, in particular, are well above that, in both materials and quality of make and finish.  Check out here: http://www.styleforum.net/t/343005/japanese-shoes-bespoke-rtw-super-thread

Many thanks, you've piqued my interest. However, I have always considered shell cordovan (horween in particular) the best of the best material for the footwear, be it CM or SWD. Is it something honestly better and by which standards (let's include any exotic leathers in the list as well)? Thanks in advance!

post #21093 of 22296
Pretty sure elephant, hippo or rhino will be pretty up there.
post #21094 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnedk View Post

Pretty sure elephant, hippo or rhino will be pretty up there.

 

I think they're not the best, just more expensive because they're rare?
post #21095 of 22296

@LA Guy if you are referring to MMoria, those are more like $3K a pop , actually.

post #21096 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auximenes View Post
 

@LA Guy if you are referring to MMoria, those are more like $3K a pop , actually.

I guess it's his reply to my mention of Lobb and Green (however I thought Lobb is doing a bespoke too).

post #21097 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auximenes View Post
 

@LA Guy if you are referring to MMoria, those are more like $3K a pop , actually.

Yeah, I know, which is why I said that apparently, $1800 wasn't rich enough for some people's blood!

post #21098 of 22296
This is my opinion. The thing with m_moria shoes/boots is that the design/process is not that out of the ordinary and far from CM footwear aesthetics. Because of that, the price seems exorbitant or ridiculous when compared to CM shoes. You have the other artisinal footwear dealing with experimentation (rubber dripping, object dyeing, etc.) and creating unique designs (front zip, spiral zip boots, stacking of the leather, etc.) yet somehow is not as expensive. M_moria designs seem pretty safe. Just get it in some hue of brown, use the non-lifted and less-bulbuous toe box, polish it, and it ends up looking like a typical CM pair.

As a counterpoint to it though, Altieri's experimentation with vertically stacked heels, and the hidden-laced pair (from cruvoir) and side laced boots, M_moria is beginning to distance and set itself apart from sharing the CM look. I feel it will start to earn the price it commands.

Edit: the side laced boots is a one piece construction, shell to cordovan from what I was told. I think it's a real beauty.
post #21099 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
 

Because  awesome contruction and perfect tannage is not the point.  If you want something really well made, go get some CM bespoke shoes.  Seriously,  none of this stuff will match up.  Not even a little bit, in most cases.  The same goes with clothing.  I mean, why would anyone pay anything for a jacket that is held together with tailoring tape?  Pair of of Guidi boots thrown in a water bath?  It's insanity.  Throwing boots into water is typically recommended.  Dipping sneakers in rubber? 

 

You are paying for the experimentation, as douchey as that sounds.  It also happens to be true.

 

This really does seem to be the sincere version of the attitude that I incorrectly thought nyarkies was espousing. Awesome construction is not antithetical to experimentation! Even where the experimentation leads to decisions that are bats along one dimension (throwing boots into water), that isn't a reason to skimp on the other dimensions (like, oh, well, it's just an experiment, so we'll attach the soles with double-sided scotch tape). (I would also expect that by the time you're selling the things for beaucoup bucks, you have an idea how the experiment works, and have a handle on how to make things that work under the given constraints. Maybe not!) If you get a meal at Alinea, it will likely be very strange by the standards of, say, trad French cuisine, but it will still be executed with technique. Achatz's broth ain't cloudy. Basically: hold fixed the elements that are currently being messed with by the experimental tendency; is the thing, given that, still crafted to a high standard?

 

To be clear, I have no reason to believe that the answer to that question is "no", other than random claims on various fora. The m.a.+ shoes I have seem well made! (But then, if I could only buy them at retail, I wouldn't have any.) But if I read that the extra grand for m_moria comes from their being super-duper well made, I'm kind of curious: precisely in what respects are they better constructed than m.a.+? (And I'm perfectly fine accepting that the price of the shoes under discussion here is higher than that of more traditional but equivalently well put together shoes because of the experimentation factor (though I'm sure there's a fair amount of the Chanel principle at work as well). It's just that I would expect that those equivalently well put together shoes are, well, well put together.)

post #21100 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by oulipien View Post
 

 

This really does seem to be the sincere version of the attitude that I incorrectly thought nyarkies was espousing. Awesome construction is not antithetical to experimentation! Even where the experimentation leads to decisions that are bats along one dimension (throwing boots into water), that isn't a reason to skimp on the other dimensions (like, oh, well, it's just an experiment, so we'll attach the soles with double-sided scotch tape). (I would also expect that by the time you're selling the things for beaucoup bucks, you have an idea how the experiment works, and have a handle on how to make things that work under the given constraints. Maybe not!) If you get a meal at Alinea, it will likely be very strange by the standards of, say, trad French cuisine, but it will still be executed with technique. Achatz's broth ain't cloudy. Basically: hold fixed the elements that are currently being messed with by the experimental tendency; is the thing, given that, still crafted to a high standard?

 

To be clear, I have no reason to believe that the answer to that question is "no", other than random claims on various fora. The m.a.+ shoes I have seem well made! (But then, if I could only buy them at retail, I wouldn't have any.) But if I read that the extra grand for m_moria comes from their being super-duper well made, I'm kind of curious: precisely in what respects are they better constructed than m.a.+? (And I'm perfectly fine accepting that the price of the shoes under discussion here is higher than that of more traditional but equivalently well put together shoes because of the experimentation factor (though I'm sure there's a fair amount of the Chanel principle at work as well). It's just that I would expect that those equivalently well put together shoes are, well, well put together.)

Well, to speak to M.A.+ specifically, because, as I've stated before, all of these brands have their own ethos, and cannot really be compared side by side, M.A.+ is very much putting together a garment, a bag, a jacket, a shoe, by sheer manipulation of the material, and with as little actual construction as possible.  The construction of MA+ leather goods is... stone age - simple loop stitches, or example, are used, and the silver work is not "fine" silverwork.  M.A.+ footwear I find pretty fascinating, but the edges are rarely finished in any traditional manner.  stitching is minimal, embellishment is nearly non-existent, (at least there is no wierd shying away from buttons on footwear).  

 

How do you compare this to a pair of Edward Greens Top Shelf shoes?  It's essentially a null comparison.  

 

As for the analogy to food, I think that it's like trying to compare the technique from Chinese cuisine to that of French cuisine.  The same values are not even espoused, so the comparison is trite, at best.  It's NOT like comparing Alinea to I dunno, per se.  Those at least come from a common set of values (e.g. precision is a good thing).  Many of the brands here, the ethos is antithetical to that of traditional bootmaking.  Look at something like Guidi and Rosselini, for example, where the leather is deliberately kept uneven, something that would be considered a defect by traditional standards. 

post #21101 of 22296
I find MA+ to be the closest iteration to CD/Mmoira. In both look and idea. MA+ is made clean because the idea is for the items to be worn in and will look cooler/better with patina. I would like to think this is the same philosophy as MM. All the effort for the boot/shoe to look clean only to be worn in and age into something. Morph into a different shoe/boot.

Why MM is better than MA+? We will have to boil this down to the shoes as MM doesn't make any clothing and we can't compare. Altieri did make Cdiem but thats not the conversation.

construction
-MA+ is blake stitched.
-MMoira is hadnwelted, with wooden nails.
leather -
-MA+ buys the hides from presumably guidi that are already dyed.
-MM hand paints everything and only gets horween shell cordovan.

(Note sf peeps correct me if i am won't on any of this.)

So it is in fact a superior boot in construction and leather. Is it worth the price difference of over $1000, idk. If you can get it and wear it without worrying then go for it and enjoy. if you can't and treat the shoes/boots as something that should be in a museum then definitely pass.

A huge difference to note between MM and CCP/A1923/MA+ is that MM uses no zippers. Which kinda sucks to me cuz i like zip ups a lot.
post #21102 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnedk View Post

leather -

-MA+ buys the hides from presumably guidi that are already dyed.
My MA+ Bison backzips are hand painted. The bluish black dye extends up over the shaft and about 6 cm down onto the otherwise cream colored lining leather. 

Edited by psydle - 4/28/16 at 7:13am
post #21103 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by psydle View Post

My MA+ Bison backzips are hand painted. The bluish black dye extends up over the shaft and about 6 cm down onto the otherwise cream colored lining leather. 

interesting, my ma+ in horse look like they are dyed and have black lining inside. maybe his leather was hand painted circa 2010 which is the backslid you have and mine are from 2012. they do change production here n there. For example, your and my boots have a channel sole whereas the new ones have a nailed in sole.
post #21104 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

 

How do you compare this to a pair of Edward Greens Top Shelf shoes?  It's essentially a null comparison. 

 

At no point, in fact, did I actually compare ma+ to any other maker, nor did I suggest that that should be done. I said---I thought this was pretty explicit in the message you were just quoting---that I think that *given* the aesthetic choices/type of "experiment" being undertaken, I think the level of craftsmanship should still be high. (Again, I have no particular reason to believe it isn't high. But I find the suggestion that since (e.g.) in other aesthetics keeping the leather uneven would be seen as a defect, all we can do is shrug when asked about build quality to be bizarre.)

 

(That said, you can still compare it on some aspects to a pair of CM shoes: you can ask about how the sole is attached, for instance. And in fact the things @sinnedk mentions between m.a.+ and MMoria are factors that you could mention comparing shoes of trad aesthetics as well. The fact that on some of the MMoria reversed cordovan shoes you can see the "Horween" stamps (something I find kind of intriguing, tbh) doesn't change that!)

 

I mean, if you want to say that it's like comparing Chinese to French cuisine, that's fine: there's a difference between a place like Jai Yun, a place like Dong Bei Mama (I mean, partly because "Chinese cuisine" isn't one single thing, but there's a difference of scale and ambition as well), and, say, Panda Express. The fact that you can't directly compare Chinese and French technique doesn't mean that you can't differentiate quality within Chinese and French cuisine, or even that you can't say "such-and-such Chinese restaurant is roughly on a par, quality-wise, with such-and-such French restaurant".

post #21105 of 22296
Quote:
Originally Posted by oulipien View Post
 

 

At no point, in fact, did I actually compare ma+ to any other maker, nor did I suggest that that should be done. I said---I thought this was pretty explicit in the message you were just quoting---that I think that *given* the aesthetic choices/type of "experiment" being undertaken, I think the level of craftsmanship should still be high. (Again, I have no particular reason to believe it isn't high. But I find the suggestion that since (e.g.) in other aesthetics keeping the leather uneven would be seen as a defect, all we can do is shrug when asked about build quality to be bizarre.)

 

(That said, you can still compare it on some aspects to a pair of CM shoes: you can ask about how the sole is attached, for instance. And in fact the things @sinnedk mentions between m.a.+ and MMoria are factors that you could mention comparing shoes of trad aesthetics as well. The fact that on some of the MMoria reversed cordovan shoes you can see the "Horween" stamps (something I find kind of intriguing, tbh) doesn't change that!)

 

I mean, if you want to say that it's like comparing Chinese to French cuisine, that's fine: there's a difference between a place like Jai Yun, a place like Dong Bei Mama (I mean, partly because "Chinese cuisine" isn't one single thing, but there's a difference of scale and ambition as well), and, say, Panda Express. The fact that you can't directly compare Chinese and French technique doesn't mean that you can't differentiate quality within Chinese and French cuisine, or even that you can't say "such-and-such Chinese restaurant is roughly on a par, quality-wise, with such-and-such French restaurant".

I suppose that it's the bolded part that I find to be untrue, and frankly, besides the point.  MA+ quality is not great if you look at it as construction, just as an example.  A random Chinese factory could do better.  In fact, if you look at basic metrics of "quality" like consistency between garments, the proper tension in the stitching, etc... MA+ is probably quite low on the list.  The construction of the garments, in particular, is stone aged.  The boots are cool, but the similarly lack much refinement of technique.  Does this detract from MA+ boots?  I would argue "No", because MA+ is not build on excellent craftsmanship, just as chantilly lace is not built for durability.

 

My point is that discussions of "quality" are essentially inconsequential here.  You value the product and the creative process.  Those are of such high importance that they drown out any justification based on "quality", for the most part.  Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.  

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