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post #136 of 225
Both definitions of epic are in the dictionary. I don't think however GOT classifies as an epic as there is no central hero and the characters dont go around rescuing maidens, slaying dragons, and being a badass. If anything the main characters friggin die all the time and dont accomplish diddly squat

It's also been steering into wheel of time territory (i went halfway and said fuckit. all the same shit), but imo it'is much more engaging


What I really appreciate about the series is that it has the same qualities that made the wire such a great TV show eg the nitty grittyness of life (eg politics, moneygrubbing) amped up with witty writing and great actors.

the gallant handsome knight that wins tourneys is either arrogant and incestuous (jaime), arrogant and retarded (renly), or arrogant and homosexual (renly and loras). not that being gay is bad, but definitely not what you think of when you think of heroes and gallant knights. otoh the ugly dwarf is the real badass. he can lead battles and men, kill like a soldier, protect his city, rule with justice and grace, says all the witty lines, and fuck and drink like none other, but still has a tender and kind heart.

everything is topsy turvy, all the cliches are turned on its head, the supposed villains (lannisters) have depth and character and are likeable (except for joffrey and cersei). the story becomes about the universe more so than individual characters and the universe (or the gods) is cruel and unjust as often as it is kind and merciful
post #137 of 225
LOLs my wife is in the other reading A Storm of Swords, and for the past 5 minutes has been screaming and cursing GRRM.

I guess she's reached the Red Wedding.
post #138 of 225
Noob Qn as I heven't read these, nor even heard of them until today. Coincidentally there was an article in the paper today about the TV series as 'Sopranos in Middle Earth' .
Just as a rough guide, how would peeps rate GOTs against say Tolkein or Stephen Donaldson? say if Tolkein is 9 / 10 and Donaldsen 8/ 10 ?
post #139 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post


It's also been steering into wheel of time territory (i went halfway and said fuckit. all the same shit), but imo it'is much more engaging
I won't hear a bad word against WOT. Sure, Knife sucked, but the rest were sick.
post #140 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post

Noob Qn as I heven't read these, nor even heard of them until today. Coincidentally there was an article in the paper today about the TV series as 'Sopranos in Middle Earth' .
Just as a rough guide, how would peeps rate GOTs against say Tolkein or Stephen Donaldson? say if Tolkein is 9 / 10 and Donaldsen 8/ 10 ?

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are on my to-read list, so I can't speak to Donaldson, but I think Martin is a better writer than Tolkien; more entertaining and more realistic, and I care far more about the characters in this series than I did about any in Lord of the Rings. I'm sure many people will disagree with me, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.R. View Post

I won't hear a bad word against WOT. Sure, Knife sucked, but the rest were sick.

Good joke.
post #141 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Both definitions of epic are in the dictionary. I don't think however GOT classifies as an epic as there is no central hero and the characters dont go around rescuing maidens, slaying dragons, and being a badass. If anything the main characters friggin die all the time and dont accomplish diddly squat

That's an imperfect definition of an epic work, but regardless that's not what I meant. The series is epic (vast in scope) rather than an epic aka a work of epic poetry like The Illiad or Beowulf.
post #142 of 225
Thread Starter 
I'd compare ASoFaI to the Harry Potter books but with more sex and death. In fact, after the last two books, I'd say Potter is ahead by a nose. GRRM is not a great writer and it is starting to show. Both he and Rowling are in love with side plots that go nowhere and introducing characters that mean little and the world they've created just gets bigger and bigger.

That said, the books are fun and the world is a good one. He has done a good job of the creating a compelling setting and cast of characters but now he is just . . . kind of flailing about.

How he resolves the story will really determine how it is judged.
post #143 of 225
Really? Comparing GRRM to Rowling? Rowling is a half-way decent writer, who tells good stories for kids, that are silly, filled with plot holes, and absurdities, but are still fun and that have for some reason caught on huge. GRRM is actually a great author, telling an amazing story, but gets overly caught up in some details. Vastly different, except they each occasionally contain the word "magic".
post #144 of 225
Yeah I don't understand the HP comparison... Rowling added a society to our world while Martin actually created an entire world with societies within it, history, religions, etc. Not raggin' on Harry Potter or anything but they're not comparable.
post #145 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertorex View Post

Just finished it here as well. Damn, did not see some of those coming. Much better than AFFC.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
1. I'm pretty sure Jon Snow is not permanently dead. It seems like too cruel even for GRRM to kill him like this, and it sets him up perfectly to be revived zombie-like by Melisandre.
2. I don't think Stannis and company are dead either. the note could be karstark shenanigans, or the bait set by Snow's murderers. The Boltons at winterfell still have the issue of their own mysterious murders.
3. Freys continue to die. Fuck em all!
4. No littlefinger in this one made me frown.gif
5. I can't wait to see how arya will be reintroduced into the main story.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
1. Since he is a warg he will have a 2nd life as ghost. Alternatively he may come back as an undead. I suspect the undead crow is Uncle Benjen Stark.
5. Perhaps Arya already has. In the last chapter, Cersei mentions a black tomcat missing one ear. I wonder if that is Arya's tomcat.
post #146 of 225
Oh my god thats so f***ing obvious Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Jon comes back as GHOST durrr
post #147 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.R. View Post

Really? Comparing GRRM to Rowling? Rowling is a half-way decent writer, who tells good stories for kids, that are, but silly, filled with plot holes, and absurdities are still fun and that have for some reason caught on huge. GRRM is actually a great author, telling an amazing story, but gets overly caught up in some details. Vastly different, except they each occasionally contain the word "magic".

Sorry, but I think it's pretty much tits on. Obviously the target audience is different and the stories are different but as for the quality of each, they are pretty comparable. The HP story is a pretty common one, coming of age ect., and the English boarding school coming of age is a well worn sub-set. The fact that she was able to hook millions of adults and children the world over speaks to a real kind of talent.
GRRM's story is also fairly well worn, there is not a character that you've never seen before, although the way he puts it all together is all his own, as is the perversion. But he is by no means a great writer and the story is far from amazing. It is big and at times really fun, but you still feel a little guilty for reading it. Again, that is similar to HP. Both authors have a ton of details and back story and tie different characters and random elements together so the reader can get really, really into the world if they want to.

The last two books were not good. He has two more to tie it together and if he can, then it might be able to be called a "great" series, right now it's just good, clean fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
1. Since he is a warg he will have a 2nd life as ghost. Alternatively he may come back as an undead. I suspect the undead crow is Uncle Benjen Stark.
5. Perhaps Arya already has. In the last chapter, Cersei mentions a black tomcat missing one ear. I wonder if that is Arya's tomcat.

That Cat with one ear has been in all the books and I think Varys might have even been referencing it when he was telling a story about the real master of the castle. I don't know how the cat in the temple could be the same as the one in the castle though, and Arya is still alive although she is a skin changer as are all the stark kids.

John might not even be dead. Plenty of characters have been "dead" but never actually died. Davos, Brianne, The Mountain that Rides, just to name a few. We know he was stabbed several times but we don't actually know he is dead.
Assuming his body dies I suspect he will be revived by the red women as Rh'lor. I also wonder if the red women is even on the right side of the battle.
I've thought that cold-hands might be Ben as well, I hope he is as it would tie somethings together.
post #148 of 225
500
post #149 of 225
LOL
post #150 of 225

Just finished reading the latest book.
 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.R. View Post


Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
1. I don't think hes dead either. Leaves too much of a hole in the storylines. My first thought was that Melisandre will raise him, and he'll feel some debt. I must admit I'm hating her part in the story. Everytime she's mentioned, it just gets.....frustrating.

2. Same again. Melisandre was saying he can't/won't die, I tend to believe it. Plus, everything going that bad at once....doubtful.
3. biggrin.gif
4. frown.gif
5. Arya since the first book has been my 2nd favourite character. I'm hoping she actually does some stuff besides merely training (for the last 5 books...)


 

2. Master Aemon let on that Stannis may not the the second coming of -Iforgetthename-. He thought maybe Daenerys was the one. So the death of Stannis is not unthinkable. Jon is, until his death is confirmed, another good candidate of the -Iforgetthename-. As he may be a son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

John might not even be dead. Plenty of characters have been "dead" but never actually died. Davos, Brianne, The Mountain that Rides, just to name a few. We know he was stabbed several times but we don't actually know he is dead.
Assuming his body dies I suspect he will be revived by the red women as Rh'lor. I also wonder if the red women is even on the right side of the battle.
I've thought that cold-hands might be Ben as well, I hope he is as it would tie somethings together.


Until Jon's death is confirmed without a doubt instead of him sinking into light there is nothing final about his death.

 

 

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