Good cutting diet with minimal muscle loss?

Originally Posted by imageWIS

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Um, when I was bulking I upped my protein intake (I never got up to 2g of protein per lb of bodyweight), among other things and went from a lean 36 chest to a lean 38 chest... protein works.
There's the kicker right there. Just pissing money down the drain.

Originally Posted by Rambo

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There's the kicker right there. Just pissing money down the drain.

What?

while its true that after a certain amount of protein (prolly 1g to 1.2g/ lb) protein synthesis will increase only marginally, there are other benefits to eating more protein. mainly satiety, thermic effect, and mental relief

it's also prolly good to be on the safe side as you might actually need more protein than an average person to put on muscle

Originally Posted by imageWIS

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What?

I was making the point that such an excessive amount of protein is a complete waste. You went and made it for me by saying that you never got nearly that much protein but still put on size. Insert - what the **** do "mental relief" and "thermic effect"(whatever the **** that is ) have to do with protein intake?

http://www.jacn.org/content/23/5/373.full.pdf

"The thermic effect of a food is the increase in energy expenditure above baseline following consumption. It further can be defined as the energy required for digestion, absorption, and disposal of ingested nutrients. This thermic effect seems to be influenced by the composition of food consumed. In general, the typical thermic effect of protein is 20%-35% of energy consumed and for carbohydrate, this number usually falls between 5% and 15%."

in terms of mental relief, i think he's talking about not worrying about "losing all your gains because you only ate half a steak oh **** i'm going catabolic" and i don't have a study for that.

what stever said

Originally Posted by Rambo

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Insert - what the **** do "mental relief" and "thermic effect"(whatever the **** that is

) have to do with protein intake?

Thermic effect = TEF (thermic effect of food, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermic_effect_of_food), protein has higher TEF, so a higher % protein intake will have lower calories available to the body.

I assume mental relief is related to satiety (if you aren't as hungry it's easier to diet).

Originally Posted by indesertum

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you're referring to DNL when you talk about carbs being moved into fat
With respect to insulin, DNL is not all that can be affected. insulin does affect the balance of lipo-generating and lipo-degrading enzymes (particularly their activations, not expression). With insulin floating around in the blood, less fat is degraded within cells. DNL should also be affected, although more slightly. In the presence intracellular glucose, cells are going to end up with elevated acyl CoA, the common end or start point of glucose and fat metabolism. Even in the presence of activated glycogen synthesizing enzymes, some of the glucose is bound to enter the degradation pathway, generate acyl CoA, and contribute to DNL (moreso than had no glucose entered the cell). This partial DNL happens alongside glycogen synthesis, until glycogen reaches max capacity (apparently), and full DNL happens. It is biochemically impossible that increased glucose within a cell doesn't contribute to some additional DNL. The magnitude of that DNL boost, however, is dependent on the amount of carb intake (as your paper describes). For most purposes, the DNL boost under high intracellular glucose is negligible. Impaired fat degeneration under the presence of high insulin, however, should be considered by anyone trying to stay "lean" via reducing body fat (the two effects are linked, logically). I don't recommend carbs for reasons other than those I have stated... To the "lean" dieters: -don't eat within 3.5 hours of bed -avoid juice, soda, candy etc. -drink lots of water -nuts -soup -leafy greens (fiber intake promoting lean mass sounds vaguely familiar, but leafy greens are good for other reasons) -eggs -fish -low-dairy (I'm surprised this doesn't come up very often. I hope its because people have realized what a plague this **** is and the fact no longer needs to be reiterated. One can only hope. "Are you a baby cow?" If you answered, "no"... don't eat it.)

Originally Posted by imageWIS

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It doesn't have to be at 6... I just don't eat carbs for my last two meals, or at the very least at dinner. My dinner usually consists of two chicken breasts (or super lean filet mignon), a big plate of salad (a few types of lettuce, radishes and carrots), and a Gala apple. For fat intake I normally eat raw olives. I however, love it, the pasta and eat it every other day for lunch. I lose nothing by not taking the risk of eating carbs at night.
What do you think fruit and vegetables are? They still are carbs, your probably getting at least 50g in a plate of salad and an apple. I don't think the time you eat has any effect on weight gain or loss, your calorie intake controls your size and your macro nutrient ratios control your composition.

Originally Posted by fuji

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your probably getting at least 50g in a plate of salad and an apple.
Man, you must be eating some pretty big apples.

25g in an apple and if he's having a big plate of salad thats at least another 25g.

25 grams is a little high for an average sized apple. Once you consider the fiber content, it's probably more around 15g of total digestible carbohydrate.

What kind of lettuce are we talking about here? There's no way he's netting 25 grams of carbs from even a popcorn bowls worth of salad greens. Maybe 5-10, tops.

i ate 5 cups of a spinach spring mix yesterday and that was 4g of carbohydrates. i guess you could get 25 if you start adding carrots, tomatoes, beans, etc.

Originally Posted by SeanathonHuff

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With respect to insulin, DNL is not all that can be affected. insulin does affect the balance of lipo-generating and lipo-degrading enzymes (particularly their activations, not expression). With insulin floating around in the blood, less fat is degraded within cells. DNL should also be affected, although more slightly. In the presence intracellular glucose, cells are going to end up with elevated acyl CoA, the common end or start point of glucose and fat metabolism. Even in the presence of activated glycogen synthesizing enzymes, some of the glucose is bound to enter the degradation pathway, generate acyl CoA, and contribute to DNL (moreso than had no glucose entered the cell). This partial DNL happens alongside glycogen synthesis, until glycogen reaches max capacity (apparently), and full DNL happens. It is biochemically impossible that increased glucose within a cell doesn't contribute to some additional DNL. The magnitude of that DNL boost, however, is dependent on the amount of carb intake (as your paper describes). For most purposes, the DNL boost under high intracellular glucose is negligible. Impaired fat degeneration under the presence of high insulin, however, should be considered by anyone trying to stay "lean" via reducing body fat (the two effects are linked, logically). I don't recommend carbs for reasons other than those I have stated...
but see if the body generates so little lipids during what you say is full DNL, I would think during partial DNL it generates a negligible amount. also while high intake of carbs lead to high insulin which leads to decreased lipolysis at the same time oxidation of carbohydrates increase quite a bit. in addition insulin is anti catabolic (preventing muscle breakdown) and helps carry nutrients like amino acids and creatine into your muscles. in the end it doesnt matter. if you ingest less energies than you put out you're not going to put on fat.

To the "lean" dieters: -don't eat within 3.5 hours of bed -avoid juice, soda, candy etc. -drink lots of water -nuts -soup -leafy greens (fiber intake promoting lean mass sounds vaguely familiar, but leafy greens are good for other reasons) -eggs -fish -low-dairy (I'm surprised this doesn't come up very often. I hope its because people have realized what a plague this **** is and the fact no longer needs to be reiterated. One can only hope. "Are you a baby cow?" If you answered, "no"... don't eat it.)

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http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=536 this is part 3? 4? of one of the series i mentioned earlier and part of it addresses weight loss/gain on dairy products. even in observational studies there are no connections between dairy products and weight gain. i would think an athlete would need the calcium for optimal performance i dont see why just because only baby cows drink cows milk humans can't drink it. there are a lot of resources in nature where humans arent "supposed" to be a recipient. this doesnt mean we cant utilize them.

Also it is important to mention the role carbohydrates play in the creation of glycerol phosphate (the backbone of triglycerides) in the fat cells themselves. With high levels of insulin, your body is preferentially burning glucose for fuel, while fat is locked away in adipocytes. This is why people suffering from hyperinsulinemia constantly crave carbohydrate rich food; their ***** acids which would normally be in circulation and used for energy are trapped away. Burning glucose causes esterification of the ***** acids into triglycerides.

As far as the implication of dairy products: most of the studies I've seen have tested the effects of dairy from the pasteurized milk of grain fed cows. It does not confirm that it isn't beneficial to consume dairy in it's healthier, raw form from cows raised on pasture. In fact, the CLA and probiotic content may be quite beneficial. More studies need to be done. I do believe the touted benefits of dairy for its calcium content are a bit overstated, if not completely erroneous, however.

Okay, I'm going to get a massage now.

lol facial. sounds like a good time i think you edited to be massage i will point out that while g3p from glycerol from glucose is turned into triglycerides, there is a truncated form of gluconeogenesis called glyceroneogenesis that is capable of turning pyruvate into g3p, something taubes will skip over in the book and in subsequent lectures. during periods of fasting (eg low carb diet) camp molecules turn on phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase which converts pyruvate to g3p. in other words even in a low carb fasted state g3p can be turned in triglycerides. Glyceroneogenesis and the Source of Glycerol for Hepatic Triacylglycerol Synthesis in Humans you can read the study itself, but they took fasted pregnant and non pregnant women and fed them 99% carbon 13 glycerol and deuterium (2H). deuterium would get incorporated into pyruvate and appear on carbon 1 and 3 of triacylglycerides. glycerol would get incorporated through the pathway glucose normally takes. as you can see between 10 and 60% of triacylglycerides come from pyruvate even when they were in a fasted state.