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Understanding Denim - Page 2

post #16 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by djc View Post
The dry cleaners use a mixture of chemicals and steam to remove stains and clean the clothing without actually having to put it in the wash. This will affect the raw denim's fading characteristics.
How?

My personal experience is that it doesn't affect the future fading characteristics, and I can't see much of a reason it would do so. What's your evidence? You're giving advice to people, would be good to know the basis of your recommendations.
post #17 of 37
I'll reiterate what some have said, and I believe the site is pretty informative for a denim novice.

That being said, I would caution against always pre-soaking before wearing. This can depend on the particular brand and type of denim. I say this because I bought a pair of EP's a few months ago and the soaking process actually relaxed the denim to the point that stretched out like crazy. I then had to wash them in warm water to shrink them back to the original size. Everything turned out fine, but I probably could have gone a bit longer without a soak. I guess my point is soaking is imperative for unsanforized denims, but others should be left to the discretion of the wearer.
post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 
Based on my experiences, clothing that goes to the dry cleaner will end up pretty different to coming straight back out of a machine. They feel almost "crispy" due to the solvents used to clean it. Through my experience, call me pedantic, but I have noticed differences to the way the jeans end up fading - and this is probably due to the way it is cleaned. When washed or soaked you will lose indigo in the water, but it is my opinion that the solvents also end up removing some of the indigo as they do to stains. There is no arguing that the chemicals are not the best for fabrics and people would opt out of using those solvents on their jeans just like they would opt for organic or vegetable based detergents to go softer on the indigo. As I mentioned in my post, this topic can be argued for countless days on end. In the end it comes up to your personal preference. This is merely my opinion as I stated in the post - I can't give you the evidence you are looking for but it is just a thought for you to consider. By all means I am not telling anyone to stop washing their jeans their way and follow my way it is simply a guide to point beginners in the right direction. Sorry I'm not able to fully answer your question, but you are completely right in that my response is unproven - if I had the time to plot the evolution of 2 pairs of jeans - 1 washed and 1 dry cleaned to display the difference I would, but sadly I find it difficult enough as it is to wear 1 pair as it is
post #19 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiHero84 View Post
I'll reiterate what some have said, and I believe the site is pretty informative for a denim novice.

That being said, I would caution against always pre-soaking before wearing. This can depend on the particular brand and type of denim. I say this because I bought a pair of EP's a few months ago and the soaking process actually relaxed the denim to the point that stretched out like crazy. I then had to wash them in warm water to shrink them back to the original size. Everything turned out fine, but I probably could have gone a bit longer without a soak. I guess my point is soaking is imperative for unsanforized denims, but others should be left to the discretion of the wearer.

I thought I had mentioned pre-soaks were for unsanforized denim in my last post - which post are you referring to?
post #20 of 37
Thread Starter 
Understanding Denim part 4: Japanese Reproductions http://wp.me/p1q786-25
post #21 of 37
What I want to know is why I should care? I mean, not to say that what you've got to say isn't important, but I mean, it's so generic. Everyone is just talking about this man. Give us something more, something that we can get behind so we can feel as passionately about it as you do
post #22 of 37
I'm confused as to why an entry entitled "Jeans Construction" doesn't mention anything about how the jeans are sewn, let alone much in the way with how the jeans are assembled but more so what details a pair of Levi's have.
post #23 of 37
Thread Starter 
Yeah, I kinda went a little off track. It was supposed to be about the construction of jeans but then I started talking about the history and realised the post would be too big if I included everything. I should rename the post, sorry about that. EDIT: Name changed to Japanese Reproduction's - will do another post on construction later
post #24 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by faolennart View Post
What I want to know is why I should care? I mean, not to say that what you've got to say isn't important, but I mean, it's so generic. Everyone is just talking about this man. Give us something more, something that we can get behind so we can feel as passionately about it as you do

Feel free to provide some constructive criticism as to what you would like to read anytime...
post #25 of 37
"You will see even Italian fashion brands such as Dior use Japanese fabrics in their premium raw jeans."

Momotaro provided denim for Gucci at one point.
post #26 of 37
"The term "selvedge" is often associated with Japanese denim and it refers to the byproduct of creation on a shuttle-loom. Selvedge denim is generally of higher quality than regular denim and gives the jeans a nice edge on the outseam of the pants. The purpose of this selvedge is mean to be so the denim does not unravel itself, however I have never heard of it happening on retail jeans and so it is really only used as a mark of quality."

I'd love to see a primer on what "quality" means. I see this assumption thrown around a lot, but I don't know that I've seen a good explanation of why selvedge is "higher quality." I know why selvedge denim is more difficult to manufacture, but how does that translate into quality when you're wearing it? For instance, in my experience selvedge denim doesn't necessarily last longer because the big weak spot on all jeans, as I see it, is the crotch, and selvedge denim is just as susceptible to blowouts as non-selvedge. If selvedge is just a tighter weave of denim because it's made on narrow looms then what are the desirable characteristics of more tightly woven denim that make it better than wide-loomed denim? Think of questions like that and then find answers (I could be wrong, but I think that's what the poster meant when he said facts from the internet were just being regurgitated--in other words, do some original reporting).

And I think if you're going to get into quality you have to talk about dyeing and construction as well. What are things a person should look for in the construction of jeans when they're handling a pair in store as they think about buying them? For instance, what does a well-sewn seam look like versus one that's poorly sewn? Are there any telltale signs of shoddy denim? What are some indications of good dyeing? Can you tell what rope-dyed denim looks like versus other methods? I think these posts you're doing could actually be a great resource if they're really detailed and contain info beyond what's already well-known.
post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by pickpackpockpuck View Post
"The term "selvedge" is often associated with Japanese denim and it refers to the byproduct of creation on a shuttle-loom. Selvedge denim is generally of higher quality than regular denim and gives the jeans a nice edge on the outseam of the pants. The purpose of this selvedge is mean to be so the denim does not unravel itself, however I have never heard of it happening on retail jeans and so it is really only used as a mark of quality."
It might be more helpful if you explain what selvage actually is. Then explain that it only appears on shuttle loom denim. Then talk about the difference between shuttle loom denim and projectile loom denim, and detail how projectile looms became common around the time that OE yarn was introduced, and manufacturers started using more sulphur and less indigo. Otherwise, you're just saying 'selvage is great' - when on its own, selvage has nothing to do with intrinsic quality.
post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by djc View Post
I thought I had mentioned pre-soaks were for unsanforized denim in my last post - which post are you referring to?

i soak everything, sanforized or not. there's always gonna be some sort shrinkage in the denim and i like getting it out of the way and closer to how they'll eventually fit after a wash. as far as the dude who says they stretched out more than they would have without a soak....how? have you worn non-soaked ones before? i can't see how soaking them would make them more prone to stretch than normal unless they were worn damp or something.... it's gonna stretch out regardless so maybe those were just destined to do it anyways. getting them wet isn't gonna magically activate some stretch quality and, if anything, is gonna tighten the weave.
post #29 of 37
^I agree with soaking everything at first. It usually gets the denim to pop a little. I don't think they stretch more with an initial soak, but I would say they stretch sooner with one. I usually buy my jeans a little small, so an initial soak helps them stretch to a comfortable fit sooner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djc View Post
Just published my third post on "Wash and Care"
This is pretty good advice, and not too OCD like many people get with their jeans. My only input is that I've generally found it unnecessary to turn jeans inside out unless they are going in the washing machine. Most of the dirt on my jeans is on the outside, so I think it makes sense to leave them right side out for a soak/hand wash in the tub. Plus, the creases seem to stay where they are. If they are going in the washer, it's likely that a crease or two will form, and turning them inside out should prevent that crease from fading due to abrasion while in the washer.
post #30 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo-T View Post
It might be more helpful if you explain what selvage actually is. Then explain that it only appears on shuttle loom denim. Then talk about the difference between shuttle loom denim and projectile loom denim, and detail how projectile looms became common around the time that OE yarn was introduced, and manufacturers started using more sulphur and less indigo. Otherwise, you're just saying 'selvage is great' - when on its own, selvage has nothing to do with intrinsic quality.

Sorry, I initially planned these write-ups to educate those new to the scene, I understand there are a lot of things I haven't covered sufficiently to keep those already in the know such as yourself, on their feet. There is just way too much content to cover and my goal is to provide an introduction for now. After all, if you get into the finer details it will just cause a shitstorm as most of it becomes based on preference. The argument can easily sway both ways as to what is the best with just a few people arguing. Bottom line is that it may just sound like I am regurgitating already known information, but that is how it is being marketed to us by the manufacturers and that is what the general consensus is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundletaint View Post
i soak everything, sanforized or not. there's always gonna be some sort shrinkage in the denim and i like getting it out of the way and closer to how they'll eventually fit after a wash. as far as the dude who says they stretched out more than they would have without a soak....how? have you worn non-soaked ones before? i can't see how soaking them would make them more prone to stretch than normal unless they were worn damp or something.... it's gonna stretch out regardless so maybe those were just destined to do it anyways. getting them wet isn't gonna magically activate some stretch quality and, if anything, is gonna tighten the weave.

That is true and I don't dispute that - who are you referring to who said they stretched out more? I don't recall a statement like that being made. I have worn soaked and non-soaked jeans and I don't disagree with what you are saying. Perhaps you have misinterpreted something that has been said - but in my books the denim will stretch out the same regardless of whether it has been washed before or after wearing, and like you said the only difference being you are able to get most of the shrinkage out of the way if you choose to introduce it to water beforehand.
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