Hazing in Greek Life

Originally Posted by Another New Yorker

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I had a discussion today with a bunch of people I went to high school with today, and those damn New Yorkers launched into their usual criticism of Greek Life. In this case the target of their condemnations was hazing during pledgeship.

This issue has plagued fraternities across the country for a few decades, indeed many states even passed laws regarding this. I am addressing this question more so to those who have been through the system though. Given the number of successful Americans on SF, I'm sure more than a fair share of you have been through pledgeship and partook in the lineups. Do you guys think this process is productive? The fire that tempers iron through steel? A valuable tradition? Or do you think it is dangerous and unnecessary.

I am personally a college freshman who barely scraped through a Southern pledgeship and turned my rage towards the spring pledges, and my stance is, honestly it made me much closer with my brothers and there is no long term resent between me and the upper classmen. Everything dangerous was done in a controlled atmosphere, and my brothers are smart, which may not always be the case. I support the process, at least as it is implemented where I go to school (pledged and paddled in the South, so I can't imagine any other area is worse).

Anyone else have any opinion on this? Balanced men Sig Eps need not apply.



You're one of those guys huh? Super sophomores who live for ******* with freshman.


I was in a better house at a school in the SEC that had a decent Greek life scene. I was expecting the worse during pledgeship...some of it certainly sucked, but it was one of the best times I had in college that I never want to do again.

Hazing brings a pledge class together in certain situations...others it will certainly divide the younger guys from the older ones.

I think there is something to be said about earning your way in.

I guess it depends on how much it really means to you. If kids want to get the **** beat out of them to be a part of a "brotherhood", so be it. No one is making them pledge.

Originally Posted by MrG

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Dude. You seem like a nice enough guy, but did you read this before you hit "submit reply?" I know you're young, but really? This seemed reasonable?

Let's take a look at the keg thing. There are approximately 15 gallons in a keg, 128 ounces in a gallon, and 12 ounces in a beer.

That means there are 960 bottles of beer in six kegs - (15*128*6)/12 for those of you following along at home. Now, there are 30 guys in the room, which means each of those guys had to drink 32 beers to kill those kegs. I've been drinking for longer than I'd care to admit, and I'm pretty damn good at it. If I were to kill 32 beers in a night I'd end up in the hospital, and I may well die. Forcing someone people to do that is beyond idiotic; it's criminal negligence.

Also, pro tip: If someone is inducing vomiting so they don't end up with alcohol poisoning, they're a moron.

I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to a literal night. Like from dusk till dawn. It's still a difficult task. The puking is just to make it easier to consume, not for health reasons. I imagine doing it without puking is still significantly worse though. But given +/- 12 hours, that's less than 3 natty light's an hour. With one drink to be fully processed in an hour, that doesn't seem too unbearable. And I'm sure there was spillage--kegs are messy like that. I originally calculated a keg to be 50 and that's far worse. But honestly, my own experience was much more tilted towards humiliating than alcohol.

The alcohol get's a lot of media attention because that's where the most (and only) visibly dangerous case of hazing resides. In reality, such high consumption rates is a rarity during pledgeship, and although there is a lot of alcohol, it is much more within the realm of just getting the kid drunk nightly or every few nights. 10-15, depending on how many it takes.

Anyhow, I'm much more curious about what y'all think about the rest of the experience though. I'm referring to the legalities of the voluntary humiliation we, those before us, and those after us choose to undergo. Can the government tell us that we cannot strip on private property, carry an umbrella over another person for a day, serve brothers lunch, or even eat dog food? Keep in mind the only coercion there is peer pressure. One is free to drop out at any time.

Originally Posted by Another New Yorker

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Much less dangerous. Probably much less dangerous than taking 18-19 shots in an hour at a party because your best friend dared you.

Also 50 beers over 12 hours isn't really that heavy of a consumption rate (I mean it's heavy, but on the danger level, it's pretty low).


No, that is not pretty low on a danger level scale. Also, however many guys you said and the kegs in a room, throwing up does not remove alcohol from the blood.

And we are talking about 18 or 19yo right?

I think you have pretty much answered your own question regarding danger in Hazing/Greek Life. Someone such as yourself declaring something that is VERY stupid, to be low risk. Nothing wrong with doing stupid **** like getting up early, working out, doing errands, whatever, but mixing heavy booze consumption with 18-22 year olds is ALWAYS dangerous. Period.

The idea that somehow large amounts of alcohol or other reckless behavior amounts to some sort of connection or brotherhood shows the maturity level of the people involved.

Originally Posted by Ole War Skule

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You're one of those guys huh? Super sophomores who live for ******* with freshman. I guess it depends on how much it really means to you. If kids want to get the **** beat out of them to be a part of a "brotherhood", so be it. No one is making them pledge.
I am a freshman who pledged fall term, and combined with pent up rage and a good bit of annoyance that these guys bitched out in the fall, let the spring term have it. I will be much tamer next term. You put brotherhood in quotes though--are you jaded with the experience? Literally every friend of mine without exception that made top tier in the SEC loves the experience--to be king of the campus with lots of opportunities for amazing times has to be fun not even looking at the social networking.

Originally Posted by madmadigan

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The idea that somehow large amounts of alcohol or other reckless behavior amounts to some sort of connection or brotherhood shows the maturity level of the people involved.
To be honest even I question the forced drinking--though that is voluntary. You are right though that is probably a bad idea. My school hasn't had alcohol related deaths in a decade or so, so despite our culture's heavy hazing and Greek life, we tend to think we play things on the cautious side. Even the administration turns a blind eye and helps ensure safety where it can--the alumni protect us from prosecution given they went through the same thing (probably worse actually) themselves. I don't know, I've always thought it interesting that since Greek Life became prominent, every president who wasn't in a service academy was Greek until Obama, and that must say something for the opportunities and privileges it provides. They went through pledgeship far worse than what me and my brothers went through so who are we to complain.

Originally Posted by madmadigan

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No, that is not pretty low on a danger level scale. Also, however many guys you said and the kegs in a room, throwing up does not remove alcohol from the blood.
And we are talking about 18 or 19yo right?

I think you have pretty much answered your own question regarding danger in Hazing/Greek Life. Someone such as yourself declaring something that is VERY stupid, to be low risk. Nothing wrong with doing stupid **** like getting up early, working out, doing errands, whatever, but mixing heavy booze consumption with 18-22 year olds is ALWAYS dangerous. Period.

The idea that somehow large amounts of alcohol or other reckless behavior amounts to some sort of connection or brotherhood shows the maturity level of the people involved.

No it doesn't, but it does remove alcohol in the stomach before it gets absorbed into the blood.

Originally Posted by Another New Yorker

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Much less dangerous. Probably much less dangerous than taking 18-19 shots in an hour at a party because your best friend dared you.

Also 50 beers over 12 hours isn't really that heavy of a consumption rate (I mean it's heavy, but on the danger level, it's pretty low).

Nothing seems "that dangerous" until it is. Couple frat boys on our campus didn't survive pledging. A few students went to prison, others expelled and so on.

Unfortunately, it's a group of immature uneducated inexperienced individuals pushing limits. They don't know where the line is & once they've crossed it, it's much too late.

Call it "bonding" if everyone comes out alive. Call it the biggest mistake of your life otherwise.

Originally Posted by Another New Yorker

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I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to a literal night. Like from dusk till dawn. It's still a difficult task. The puking is just to make it easier to consume, not for health reasons. I imagine doing it without puking is still significantly worse though. But given +/- 12 hours, that's less than 3 natty light's an hour. With one drink to be fully processed in an hour, that doesn't seem too unbearable. And I'm sure there was spillage--kegs are messy like that. I originally calculated a keg to be 50 and that's far worse. But honestly, my own experience was much more tilted towards humiliating than alcohol.

The alcohol get's a lot of media attention because that's where the most (and only) visibly dangerous case of hazing resides. In reality, such high consumption rates is a rarity during pledgeship, and although there is a lot of alcohol, it is much more within the realm of just getting the kid drunk nightly or every few nights. 10-15, depending on how many it takes.

Anyhow, I'm much more curious about what y'all think about the rest of the experience though. I'm referring to the legalities of the voluntary humiliation we, those before us, and those after us choose to undergo. Can the government tell us that we cannot strip on private property, carry an umbrella over another person for a day, serve brothers lunch, or even eat dog food? Keep in mind the only coercion there is peer pressure. One is free to drop out at any time.

Yes, I will agree that having 12 hours to do it is less dumb, but it's still pretty stupid. Forcing people to drink is always a bad idea.

I think madmadigan captures it very well in his post. There's nothing wrong with the ticky tacky stuff like holding umbrellas and the like, but the drinking stuff is not OK. If hazing laws prohibit the former, that's pretty weak, but I think prohibiting the latter is probably a good idea.

OP, just out of curiousity, what Southern school do you attend?

I understand if you'd rather not mention it by name, but I'd be interested if you don't mind. I can guess where Ole War Skule went, but not you. I can't help but wonder how they compare.

did it, never would do it again, but enjoyed the hell out of it and look back on it fondly.
i had a lot of doubts going in, but it was definitely one of the best experiences of my life.
there's definitely a lot of possibly dangerous forced alcohol consumption, but other than that, my pledge experience was not at all "dangerous" by design--although for things like kidnappings, things would get dangerous but i don't think you can blame that as hazing.
even the "humiliating" stuff is not really humiliating if you're not a tool. "oh noe theyre making me wear a sundress and breakdance in the middle of the quad while making seniors sandwiches! i'm so humiliated and offended that i'm going to kill myself!".... please.

and the whole keg thing, we did that too, had a time limit of 8 hours for a class of 15. with controlled vomiting, which is itself not a good thing, but not something that's going to kill you in and of itself, it's really not a huge deal. would definitely not be one of my top 3 drunkendest nights.

Originally Posted by MrG

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Yes, I will agree that having 12 hours to do it is less dumb, but it's still pretty stupid. Forcing people to drink is always a bad idea.

I think madmadigan captures it very well in his post. There's nothing wrong with the ticky tacky stuff like holding umbrellas and the like, but the drinking stuff is not OK. If hazing laws prohibit the former, that's pretty weak, but I think prohibiting the latter is probably a good idea.

Y'all are probably right then. I'm rewriting the risk management and pledge programs for next year, you guys are probably a good splash of cold water given the culture I'm immersed in. Not trying to get anyone killed; just trying to have some tomfoolery and hardship. Alcohol on a brutally high level is probably a bad idea irresponsible to my brothers locally and nationally, although I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pledges to handle what I (and I'm only 5'5) can do on a typical Saturday night.

Good lord...

No it was fun, don't get me wrong. I had a lot more fun than most people would otherwise in college. But I graduated 2 1/2 years ago...my senior year I was still paying dues but wasn't really involved anymore. The petty **** gets old.

I made some life long friends through my fraternity, was exposed to a few people with different points of view I probably wouldn't have ever associated myself with...but honestly, you're in a house with 130 other guys, you won't know all of them. Hell, I only keep in touch with like 6 of my pledge brothers with any sort of regularity...out of over 40.

Looking back, the things we did, the way we acted...it was all pretty stupid-a bunch of 19-22 year old guys acting way more important than they really were. Take from it what you can, give back in some way, replace yourself with a couple quality guys during rush, but don't ever take it too seriously.

Originally Posted by Another New Yorker

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I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to a literal night. Like from dusk till dawn. It's still a difficult task. The puking is just to make it easier to consume, not for health reasons. I imagine doing it without puking is still significantly worse though. But given +/- 12 hours, that's less than 3 natty light's an hour. With one drink to be fully processed in an hour, that doesn't seem too unbearable. And I'm sure there was spillage--kegs are messy like that. I originally calculated a keg to be 50 and that's far worse. But honestly, my own experience was much more tilted towards humiliating than alcohol.

The alcohol get's a lot of media attention because that's where the most (and only) visibly dangerous case of hazing resides. In reality, such high consumption rates is a rarity during pledgeship, and although there is a lot of alcohol, it is much more within the realm of just getting the kid drunk nightly or every few nights. 10-15, depending on how many it takes.

Anyhow, I'm much more curious about what y'all think about the rest of the experience though. I'm referring to the legalities of the voluntary humiliation we, those before us, and those after us choose to undergo. Can the government tell us that we cannot strip on private property, carry an umbrella over another person for a day, serve brothers lunch, or even eat dog food? Keep in mind the only coercion there is peer pressure. One is free to drop out at any time.


Why any freshman would want to join a frat is beyond me.

Being humilated by someone 1-3 years/grades ahead of you? Really? So somehow getting the approval of someone who is slightly older than you is something worth doing?

Don't take offense to this, but at 18; you don't know ****.

19-21 still pretty much don't know ****.

And I'm not saying you personally, I'm saying everyone at that age. You think you do, but you don't.

I guess some people have a certain type of personality that they are willing to let an idiot humilate them... i've never been that type. I have had many close friends over the years, friends that would be there for me in a pinch, and would fight back to back with me if we had to, and I never had to be someones errand boy.

As far as the question about the government or making laws against it, no. People will ALWAYS do what they want, and free choice/free will is important. But I'm all for laws/fines/breaking up Frat's if they are requiring any type of dangerous **** that involves alcohol/drugs. We don't need moron 19 and 20 year olds getting 18 year olds to drink till they die.

I don't have a problem with hazing. Just as long as no body dies or is maimed.

Originally Posted by madmadigan

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Why any freshman would want to join a frat is beyond me.

Being humilated by someone 1-3 years/grades ahead of you? Really? So somehow getting the approval of someone who is slightly older than you is something worth doing?

Don't take offense to this, but at 18; you don't know ****.

19-21 still pretty much don't know ****.

And I'm not saying you personally, I'm saying everyone at that age. You think you do, but you don't.

I guess some people have a certain type of personality that they are willing to let an idiot humilate them... i've never been that type. I have had many close friends over the years, friends that would be there for me in a pinch, and would fight back to back with me if we had to, and I never had to be someones errand boy.

As far as the question about the government or making laws against it, no. People will ALWAYS do what they want, and free choice/free will is important. But I'm all for laws/fines/breaking up Frat's if they are requiring any type of dangerous **** that involves alcohol/drugs. We don't need moron 19 and 20 year olds getting 18 year olds to drink till they die.

I don't want to get into this debate here, but here are the main incentives and reasons in the South. Whether or not they would drive you is different.

Supremely better housing.
People far more like myself in large numbers (true I can make these friends normally but there's nothing wrong with this fundamentally).
Best parties on campus.
Family tradition.
Networking opportunities and beyond.
Sorority mixers.
Great breaks: Deep sea fishing, summer houses in Cabo, etc.
Unlimited alcohol -- no worries about fake IDs or any of that bullshit.

My rationale for going through the process:
I'm respecting my alumni by going through what they went through to wear their letters.
I'm earning my lot in life. Once you've been humiliated to the max you have nothing left to fear. Nothing is too embarrassing to joke about.
Hardship truly does build closeness.
Any of my brothers would and have backed me in a fight. One drove me 7 hours home for a family emergency and I had only known him well for a week. He is now one of my (dozens of) best friends.