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Carmina Shoes : Reviews, Sizing, Photos and More - Page 167

post #2491 of 10390

I think it's unfortunate what happened to Mr. Moo.

 

However I would think if quality was extremely poor overall there would be more stories coming to light.

 

I'm sure even shoes manufactured by Edward Green and John Lobb sometimes aren't perfect and slip by quality control from time to time.

 

What's more unfortunate is how the situation afterwards aparently was handled.

 

However one or even two incedents of this kind of thing doesn't always ruin a brand. 

post #2492 of 10390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moo View Post

Look, *I* have never claimed that Carmina is comparable to high end brands. I don't know why this keep being brought up as if it's something I said, or is something that is germane to this discussion. The only time I mentioned other brands in my conversation with Betty is when she said (and I'm repeating this AGAIN, for the third time) that the reason for the problems with my shoes is because they are "artisan" and made by hand. That is a total load of shit that I'm sure has worked on other customers who are perhaps more akin to purchasing Cole Haan and other such non-"artisan" brands, and don't know any better. Frankly it was insulting and I should have told her to fuck off and filed a PayPal complaint then and there, but I remained civilized and ended up losing over $100 because of it.
If Carmina is not used to dealing with the end customer, they need to stop selling directly to the end customer until they can sort out their issues. I think that is a piss poor excuse, actually. What, they can't take 20 seconds to look at every pair of shoes that leaves their store and make sure that shoes with completely open and obvious faults are not sent to the customer? IF that is the excuse for their lack of attention to detail of the finished product, they need new quality control procedures. Slashes in leather? Divots in cap-toes? Divots in other areas of the shoe? Plastic still clinging to the welt? Rub marks all over the side/sole as if they were worn? Alden sells their seconds - at significant discounts - and they are usually in better shape than some of the Carminas I've seen sold as firsts here and in person (and not just my pair, either). Even Allen Edmonds doesn't sell their first quality shoes in such condition! (and if they do, their customer service doesn't screw around with the customer with excuses, and then nickle and dime the returns process)

I agree 100%. Things can go wrong and they can miss a pair in QC BUT telling the customer that he is wrong because he won´t accept clear flaws is not acceptable. And then leaving him with the cost and Paypal fees is below zero in customer care points.

I have four Carminas and one shell MTO on the way, i´m very happy with the brand, nice lasts and great models. I´ve have not bought one pair of C&J since i started to buy Carmina but i can change back. The difference in price is about 150 dollar if i buy in sweden and if i order C&J from the UK the difference is 0-75 dollars. If Carmina can´t keep quality as the brand grow i will leave them right away. If i want cheap shoes were some flaws is acceptable i can buy Meermin.
post #2493 of 10390
I completely agree with Moo, if you cant handle end users, let the retailers take care of it for you and be a wholesale producer
post #2494 of 10390
I completely disagree. Keep the 'factory direct' prices coming regardless, including less than stellar customer service, if that's the way it has to be.

If I want superb service and immaculate quality control I'm perfectly free to go to a retailer to obtain it. But it will come at an additional monetary cost, won't it?

I'd much rather have access to the manufacturer directly than to pay the higher retail price.

Would it be even better still if the factory had a stellar and efficient set up for dealing with retail? Sure.
post #2495 of 10390
FWIW
skoaktiebolaget 's prices for shell boots are not that much different than directly from carmina
post #2496 of 10390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaves View Post

I am of the opinion that Carmina are very good value for money.
But let’s be very clear, Carmina are not up to standards with Edward Green or Gaziano & Girling, and have never claimed to be so. On the contrary, they emphasize themselves that you should not compare them to these makers. As mentioned above, you pay half the price, if not less, for a pair of Carmina compared to EG or G&G. You can’t buy an Audi and expect it to perform like a Porsche. If you want to compare them do it with Crockett & Jones Benchgrade, Alden or other brands in the $500 segment.
Mr. Moo had a bad customer experience. That is unfortunate. There is a perfectly good explanation for this, although I’m not saying it makes it right; Carmina are not used to dealing with end consumers. There is also the language barrier. This is why some people will find the experience dealing directly with them discouraging. Carmina is still a very good maker, they have to improve on their end customer handling if they want to be successful with their direct sales, but there’s a bunch of earnest independent retailers offering Carmina, so you’ll be fine either way. Carmina shoes are great and maybe the best bang for the buck in the shoemaking industry (yes, I am biased, but it is my honest opinion) so if you don’t like dealing directly with Carmina, go to your local Carmina retailer or Skoaktiebolaget, The Armoury, Epaulet or some other store with a good selection and a mail order service.

Well said, now carry some damn size 12UK!!! Love your store and know you have a few 12UK's as you kindly responded previously to an email. Are Europeans really that much smaller in stature that NOT ONE end retailer generally carries any real stock and variety of that size? Alden, AE ( I'll take Carmina every day) are always flush with every model in that size. I will never get it. You have great models and styles, and as much an eye for the more handsome Carmina as Armoury, maybe better. Yes, I am a kiss ass when suits my purpose
post #2497 of 10390
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnedk View Post

FWIW
skoaktiebolaget 's prices for shell boots are not that much different than directly from carmina

If you live in europe and can´t deduct VAT the small difference in price eats up by the shipping cost. I have bought 3 of my 4 Carminas in spain so far but for someone who doesn´t travel to those citys it´s better to buy in sweden.
post #2498 of 10390
While the price points on shell boots, or calf may not be of great savings in going direct, ( I have never appreciated the boot popularity) the shell shoes are substantially cheaper direct, either through Betty and her efforts to find the shoe, or on the neglected e-store. Most shell in US dollars are appr. $560-620 ( ex shipping). Some stores, for same model are $820-850. I don't find that unfair, as they have carry costs and are often doing a group buy MTO, or special stock, but wouldn't kick a gift horse, as Betty and direct purchases give outrageous savings.
post #2499 of 10390
All this Shell Cordovan Talk.


post #2500 of 10390
Perhaps the boots are similarly priced. But shoes are 3400 sek which equals 518 dollars from Skoaktiebolaget, Including VAT. Deduct VAT and you get about 425 USD. Direct from Carmina 275 Euro excluding VAT = 362.00 dollars. Thus the difference is about 63 dollars or 18% more. I don't call that insubstantial in that $63 worth of extra customer service would equal an hour or two of time per pair of shoes (including overhead).

Now, I will be the FIRST person to go to a store to try on shoes. And if I am going to make use of the retailer's services I feel absolutely obligated to purchase through them. Not interested in ripping anyone off.

But, if I have no local retailer and can save that much on a mid range shoe by dealing with the factory direct I'm happy to assume a little more effort on my part might be required. And that minor compromises might be required. Afterall, one presumes that there is both value and cost to the services of the retailer, no?

I'll admit to being a little overly sensitive to the manufacturer's side of the equation. As I am in the business of custom design. I cannot tell you how often I encounter clients who expect to first negotiate a rock bottom price and then insist on receiving nothing but the highest quality of services and perfect end products. Needless to say, those who insist on the lowest price, do not, in fact, get the same service as those who pay for it. Business people don't stay in business for long if they are stupid enough to fall into that trap.

So - for me - when buying middling quality shoes direct from the factory in little old Inca Majorca I'm willing to accept the charmingly lax attention to time and a few little imperfections here and there (after all - they'll be imperfect after a dozen wearings anyway. Conversely, when buying G&Gs from Bespoke England I expect nothing less than elegant service and immaculate end product (which I receive).

To each their own. Given the description Moo gave of the 'problems' with the shoes I'm pretty sure I would have pulled out the plastic and happily proceeded on with my new shoes. I would have thought hmmmmmmmm.......I just got paid 64 dollars to pull a little plasitc out of a shoe. Cool. Some things in life are just not worth getting unhappy about, IMO.

To each their own.........

BTW - Carmina should have refunded 100% of Mr. Moo's costs - that part I don't understand, at all. Better to take that hit than ruin one's reputation.
post #2501 of 10390
Quote:
Originally Posted by bespoken4me View Post

While the price points on shell boots, or calf may not be of great savings in going direct, ( I have never appreciated the boot popularity) the shell shoes are substantially cheaper direct, either through Betty and her efforts to find the shoe, or on the neglected e-store. Most shell in US dollars are appr. $560-620 ( ex shipping). Some stores, for same model are $820-850. I don't find that unfair, as they have carry costs and are often doing a group buy MTO, or special stock, but wouldn't kick a gift horse, as Betty and direct purchases give outrageous savings.

I completely agree. An Epaulet pair of Carminas, whether it be stock or MTO, will run ~$200 more than a similar style purchased directly. I'll gladly put forth that extra money to (1) get the model/design that I like, (2) get wonderful customer service, and (3) support growing local businesses. Given how helpful and attentive Mike and his associates are, I have no qualms with them taking a healthy cut, especially since they're equally glad to give back in the form of free shoe trees and shipping.

 

And for what it's worth, Skoaktiebolaget has been damn good throughout their first MTO, too.

post #2502 of 10390
balmoral boots from carmina france in shell cordovan = 841.88 w/shipping, burgandy w/dianite sole
skoaktiebolaget balmoral boots in cognac single leather sole = 753.18 w/shipping
mto shell boot from skoaktiebolaget (i believe the mto group buy is from there_ = 730 w/shipping

i guess skoaktiebolaget has very competitive prices on the boot side
post #2503 of 10390
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnedk View Post

balmoral boots from carmina france in shell cordovan = 841.88 w/shipping, burgandy w/dianite sole
skoaktiebolaget balmoral boots in cognac single leather sole = 753.18 w/shipping
mto shell boot from skoaktiebolaget (i believe the mto group buy is from there_ = 730 w/shipping
i guess skoaktiebolaget has very competitive prices on the boot side

well at least on the mto. There is nearly $100 difference between the first two examples - that is not insubstantial.

As I recall I received these from Carmina direct for approximately $615, all in, no trees.

If you can point me in the direction of regularly available source for either a better made shoe in Horween shell at the same price or an equal quality shoe for less, PLEASE do.



And do PLEASE note that the flash pics up some tiny imperfections in the finishing of the welt! I'm ok with that. Next time I polish them I may, or may not, remember to hit them up with a little color.
post #2504 of 10390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

well at least on the mto. There is nearly $100 difference between the first two examples - that is not insubstantial.
As I recall I received these from Carmina direct for approximately $615, all in, no trees.
If you can point me in the direction of regularly available source for either a better made shoe in Horween shell at the same price or an equal quality shoe for less, PLEASE do.

And do PLEASE note that the flash pics up some tiny imperfections in the finishing of the welt! I'm ok with that. Next time I polish them I may, or may not, remember to hit them up with a little color.

Now those are gorgeous. Assuming green, the sole contrasts beautifully and rarely do they become a "feature" as yours do. Rain last? (Can't figure out)
My Simpson perf toe in ruby, identical but for the last to Epaulet's recent make, came in yesterday at $622, ex Vat, incl shipping and no trees. Just can't get around the savings. God I love those shoes you posted. . Petkov, an obscure but regionally known maker in Vienna has a pair of green shell venetian loafers. I am driving further in debt after seeing your shell, and am going to have a pair made. I was going to get the one remaining cognac shell wing from Paris store, but also in Simpson. I am not going forward with that now. Green shell baby!
post #2505 of 10390
Quote:
Originally Posted by bespoken4me View Post

Now those are gorgeous. Assuming green, the sole contrasts beautifully and rarely do they become a "feature" as yours do. Rain last? (Can't figure out)
My Simpson perf toe in ruby, identical but for the last to Epaulet's recent make, came in yesterday at $622, ex Vat, incl shipping and no trees. Just can't get around the savings. God I love those shoes you posted. . Petkov, an obscure but regionally known maker in Vienna has a pair of green shell venetian loafers. I am driving further in debt after seeing your shell, and am going to have a pair made. I was going to get the one remaining cognac shell wing from Paris store, but also in Simpson. I am not going forward with that now. Green shell baby!

Thank you - but all I did was point and click - I can take no credit for anything other than good taste. This exact model is still available on the webstore site - clicky clicky! And if you want a matchy matchy green shell belt I can hook you up with that as well.

Yes the rain last. I also have a pair of Carmina shells on the Simpson last in the same size. The Simpson pair ran so tight in the toes that they hurt at first although are fine now. The Rain last runs just a tiny bit wide on me. but just a tiny bit.
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