white tie with DJ

I saw the Thomas Crown affair remake(1999) again last night and I noticed that Thomas Crown(Pierce Brosnan) was wearing a white bow tie with a tuxedo. As I generally think of Brosnan as a very well-dressed man, I had to ask myself "What the hell?" Is a black and white ball an exception or how else can the combination be explained?

According to Nicholas J. Storey, who seems to know more about the history of men's semi-formal eveningwear, wearing a white bowtie with a dinner jacket is quite correct sartorially although uncommon these days. A lot of the igentry piled onto president Obama for wearing a white tie with a "black tie" ensemble at the inaugural ball. In point of fact, Obama was right, the igents were wrong.

As the sitting Bond he was contractually forbidden from being seen in any other film in a tuxedo. He was allowed this stretching of the rules as the parent companies of the Bond franchise and TCA were one and the same. Notice it's a white tie with a tux and you never see it fastened, just hung loosely inside his collar.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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According to Nicholas J. Storey, who seems to know more about the history of men's semi-formal eveningwear, wearing a white bowtie with a dinner jacket is quite correct sartorially although uncommon these days. A lot of the igentry piled onto president Obama for wearing a white tie with a "black tie" ensemble at the inaugural ball. In point of fact, Obama was right, the igents were wrong.

orilly

^Yes, really. According Storey, the dinner jacket was most commonly worn with a white tie in the pre-WWI era, but by the 1920s it had been pretty well supplanted by the black bowtie.

So, there is excellent historical precent for wearing a white bowtie with a DJ although it might be considered somewhat "reactionary" these days. However, I am sure that a nice conservative like you, Manton, wouldn't necessarily equate "reactionary" with "wrong" or "bad." Besides, if as hip and contemporary a figure as the current POTUS chooses to wear a white tie with a DJ how "reactionary" can it be? I have heard Obama called a lot of things in recent years, but "reactionary" isn't one of them.

You can joust back and forth as long as you wish on the allegedly correct history of white tie with dinner jacket but the fact remains Brosnan did not wear a black tie with his due to the Bond contract.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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^Yes, really. According Storey, the dinner jacket was most commonly worn with a white tie in the pre-WWI era, but by the 1920s it had been pretty well supplanted by the black bowtie.

So, there is excellent historical precent for wearing a white bowtie with a DJ although it might be considered somewhat "reactionary" these days. However, I am sure that a nice conservative like you, Manton, wouldn't necessarily equate "reactionary" with "wrong" or "bad." Besides, if as hip and contemporary a figure as the current POTUS chooses to wear a white tie with a DJ how "reactionary" can it be? I have heard Obama called a lot of things in recent years, but "reactionary" isn't one of them.

Well, I was not aware that the DJ was commonly worn at all in the pre-WWI era. That was a time when tails ruled.

However, the real question here is what rules prevail at a given time. Originally tails were worn with black waistcoats. Every picture and illustration you see from the Gilded Age shows this. By the Edwardian Era, a white waistcoat was the rule.

So, you can say that, essentially, since it happened once however long ago, it's correct forever. But that's clearly wrong, it seems to me. Styles evolve. Otherwise (say) the blue coat with gold buttons and buff leggings of the Regency would still be "correct" for evening, which would be absurd.

The style of correct formal wear has changed little since the 1930s. One change in the UK would be that it's considered incorrect there now to wear a wing collar with black tie (it wasn't in the '30s) but it's still OK here.

However, I don't expect the styles to change any further simply because there is no longer any interest in them. Rather than evolve more, men's formal wear will simply die.

And if you think Obama wore what he wore out of conviction rather than ignorance, all I can say is

Originally Posted by Ianiceman

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As the sitting Bond he was contractually forbidden from being seen in any other film in a tuxedo. He was allowed this stretching of the rules as the parent companies of the Bond franchise and TCA were one and the same. Notice it's a white tie with a tux and you never see it fastened, just hung loosely inside his collar.

Originally Posted by Ianiceman

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You can joust back and forth as long as you wish on the allegedly correct history of white tie with dinner jacket but the fact remains Brosnan did not wear a black tie with his due to the Bond contract.

It amuses me that the correct answer is being ignored for the sake of an argument.

hey, I read someplace that Pierce Brosnan had some sort of weird contract that said he wasn't even allowed to wear a tux except when he was playing James Bond.

anybody know anything about this?

Originally Posted by howbah

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hey, I read someplace that Pierce Brosnan had some sort of weird contract that said he wasn't even allowed to wear a tux except when he was playing James Bond.

anybody know anything about this?

No, but according to Nicholas J. Storey....

I'm actually going to wear my tux with a white bow and white waistcoat next week

Originally Posted by gdl203

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I'm actually going to wear my tux with a white bow and white waistcoat next week

Why???

Originally Posted by Manton

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Why???

Why not






I'm going to a Gatsby theme party and this is something I can piece together easily from my wardrobe without buying anything new (I don't own tails). So that's my outfit for the night

Why wouldn't you jump at the chance to get a tail coat?

Can't tell if you're serious. It's just some buddy's costume party - I'm not buying tails for this. Actually, I'm not buying anything for this.