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white tie with DJ - Page 3

post #31 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Wang View Post
Is this the same buddy that had the tux and sneakers party?
Stalker alert!! No, that was a charity event that an important client invited me too. The dress code was a nod to that charity's mission.
post #32 of 107
A little OT, but anyone living in LA and wanting to see a hearkening back to the "good old days," take a walk through the lobby of the Biltmore downtown. While the hotel has seen better days, it used to be the finest in Los Angeles and for its first two decades the Oscars were hosted there. The main halls are filled with photographs of the earliest events from the 20s through the 40s. Back then, the Academy Awards were still considered a white tie event by some, though the majority chose black. Wing and turndown collars appear to both be equally acceptable.

About the only improvement to the ceremony since then has been the emphasis on women's physical fitness: I've never seen so many arms begging for sleeves...
post #33 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
Well, I was not aware that the DJ was commonly worn at all in the pre-WWI era. That was a time when tails ruled.

However, the real question here is what rules prevail at a given time. Originally tails were worn with black waistcoats. Every picture and illustration you see from the Gilded Age shows this. By the Edwardian Era, a white waistcoat was the rule.


Didn't David, as in Prince of Wales, King Edward VIII and Duke of Windsor, sport a tailcoat with a black vest? I have the impression he did.
post #34 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post
Didn't David, as in Prince of Wales, King Edward VIII and Duke of Windsor, sport a tailcoat with a black vest? I have the impression he did.

Not sure. I don't recall seeing it.

However, if you look at (say) Charles Dana Gibson drawings, everyone has a black vest. Then After about 1900 it's mostly white and after WWI it's all white.
post #35 of 107
^Actually, it was a midnight blue tailcoat and matching vest. It is illustrated on page 88 of Storey's [i]History of Men's Fashion[./I] It was made for him by Scholte in 1938.

You ought to pick up Storey's two books if you haven't already, Manton. I am sure you would find them entertaining and amusing. The fact that Storey sailed away from Devil's Island should raise him in your esteem.
post #36 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post
^Actually, it was a midnight blue tailcoat and matching vest. It is illustrated on page 88 of Storey's [i]History of Men's Fashion[./I] It was made for him by Scholte in 1938.

You ought to pick up Storey's two books if you haven't already, Manton. I am sure you would find them entertaining and amusing. The fact that Storey sailed away from Devil's Island should raise him in your esteem.

post #37 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
"Sail Away" is a damned fine Coward number too! However, as a point of information, the devil-in-chief (Adolf himself), laid into me with his pitchfork and I jumped into the warm Pacific Ocean. Then, after firing a salvo, from the Good Ship FNB, I sailed away. Since it has been graciously mentioned, my second book has four and a half pages on all this: including ties and vest combos for white and black tie; all presented as the short history of the dinner jacket/tuxedo. The sources include: Henry Poole's complete file on the origination of the dinner jacket; correspondence from the current Lord Dupplin (whose predecessor introduced the DJ to 'Bertie' PoW), and a member of the costume department of the V&A Museum; an early 20th century plate by Thornton; documents in the Tuxedo Park Library; references in The New York Times, Town Topics and The Tailor & Cutter. Will, of ASW, thought that it was a good stab at the subject. Various reviewers yet to publish, have also endorsed it. I think that the current norms would be for a white tie and vest and a stiff shirt with a dress coat and for a black tie (and black vest if the DJ/tux is SB) plus soft shirt with turn-down collar with a DJ/tux. However, although full evening dress was last settled as a matter of UK Court decree (in 1937) as described above, and followed throughout a good part of the world (with a permissible alternative of black vest), 'black tie' has never been subject to any formulation, except by social expectation. In its earliest manifestations, the DJ/tux was nearly always worn with a white tie, stiff shirt and white or black vest. This changed, after WWI, and a black tie and black vest became the norm with a DJ/tux (with a stiff shirt). The advent of the USA DB tux, brought back from the USA to the UK by Jack Buchanan, taken up by the then PoW (later 'the Little Dook') in 1924 and his subsequent adoption of a soft shirt and black tie with the DB DJ/tux became a settled social practice that endures. This does not mean that it is 'wrong' to wear a white tie (with a soft or a hard shirt) with a DJ tux and, on the vest point: there is a portrait of Herbert Buckmaster, founder of Buck's Club, in a DJ, soft shirt, black tie and white vest (circa 1960). Whether Obama knew something that many don't or he just 'struck lucky', his white tie with his tux was not, on any reasonable view, 'incorrect'. He should, though, have covered his waist. NJS
post #38 of 107
I have no doubt that your research is all solid, but I really can't agree that white tie with a DJ is still correct. It's been nearly 100 years. There is a solid social expectation that DJ = black tie and tailcoat = white tie. And there is no other ground for what is correct or not other than social expectation.
post #39 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I have no doubt that your research is all solid, but I really can't agree that white tie with a DJ is still correct. It's been nearly 100 years. There is a solid social expectation that DJ = black tie and tailcoat = white tie. And there is no other ground for what is correct or not other than social expectation.
I cannot help but find that Manton is correct. I mean, you can't wear a white tie with, ahh, black tie. But really, things are confusing enough as it is. "Black tie" is now even the recognized dress code. It is hard enough to get people to dress in some vague approximation of black tie as it is without counter-intuitive exceptions. You might have gotten away with this once-upon-a-time when there was a wider understanding of norms and when events and venues dictated dress codes rather than invitations. Sadly, nowadays it is different. If the invitation specifies black tie, you just can't show up in a DJ and a white tie. You would be actively flaunting your host's expectations. And certainly, in the extremely unlikely event that you were to recieve an invitation specifying white tie, you can't wear a DJ and a white tie. The Queen would not be amused.
post #40 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I have no doubt that your research is all solid, but I really can't agree that white tie with a DJ is still correct. It's been nearly 100 years. There is a solid social expectation that DJ = black tie and tailcoat = white tie. And there is no other ground for what is correct or not other than social expectation.
Aha! We meet at last! Those who escape from Devil's Island plainly share a bond from the bitter experience of having spent energy in casting pearls before swine. We agree on the social expectations of each outfit at the last point that many people considered them at all (I'd say, probably, around 1969, just before the lace jabot and coloured, floppy velvet bow ties 'came in'). These days, except at the most contrived and engineered social events, vainly seeking the snows of yesteryear, it is remarkable if men pitch up for an arranged social evening function in a suit and tie at all. White tie is, but for very rare and exclusive events, all but gone. If a white tie is occasionally matched up with a DJ/tux, it might defy the social expectations of those alive in the period between (say) 1920 and 1969 but I am not sure that there are any current social expectations positively to outrage; it is secondary that the DJ/tux was originally worn with a white tie. That is the main reason that I suggest that a white tie with a DJ/tux is not incorrect on any basis. Placed alongside the folks at a Hollywood 'black tie' event, a fellow in a good DJ/tux and a white tie becomes, in a sense, a beacon of nice (if accidental) evolution. In fact, this might even be the only way in which the use of a white evening tie has any hope of survival at all - as suggested by the poster going to the Gatsby 'do'.
post #41 of 107
Well I have done my part, I have worn white tie several times but I bet I never will have occasion to again. I think it's a dead form at this point.
post #42 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounder View Post
I cannot help but find that Manton is correct. I mean, you can't wear a white tie with, ahh, black tie.

But really, things are confusing enough as it is. "Black tie" is now even the recognized dress code. It is hard enough to get people to dress in some vague approximation of black tie as it is without counter-intuitive exceptions.

You might have gotten away with this once-upon-a-time when there was a wider understanding of norms and when events and venues dictated dress codes rather than invitations. Sadly, nowadays it is different. If the invitation specifies black tie, you just can't show up in a DJ and a white tie. You would be actively flaunting your host's expectations. And certainly, in the extremely unlikely event that you were to recieve an invitation specifying white tie, you can't wear a DJ and a white tie. The Queen would not be amused.

This post crossed with my last post, where I (inadvertently) address your main point: as a matter of fact, the introduction of the DJ to 'Bertie' by Lord Dupplin was at an evening event (on the royal yacht) which, strictly, required a dress coat. Therefore, the transatlantic journey of the DJ-tux began with this event (details elsewhere!): in short, with a white tie (then outrageously) worn with a new-fangled DJ.
post #43 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
Well I have done my part, I have worn white tie several times but I bet I never will have occasion to again. I think it's a dead form at this point.

Yes, nearly agreed; although there will be, for a time, the continuation of the Caledonian and Oban Balls, which prescribe dress coats (the Caledonian Ball presided over, ironically, by a committee which includes the current Lord Dupplin). There are also groups that organize small events at which they all wear dress coats and ball gowns. The trouble with most of them is that the gals are in the dress coats and the guys are in the ball gowns.
post #44 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
Well I have done my part, I have worn white tie several times but I bet I never will have occasion to again. I think it's a dead form at this point.
Definitely fading but dead is a stretch. You still see it at southern weddings and deb balls. Most guys don't like to wear it though for the same reason most people don't like tuxedos - they rent them, and rentals are crap. Edited to add: I do think Obama missed a chance to make a sartorial statement though - if your own inauguration ball isn't an occasion for white tie I don't know what is. Apparently LBJ was the 1st president to wear a business suit instead of a morning coat for the actual inauguration.
post #45 of 107
^Yes, full-fig white tie ensembles are used sometimes as wedding attire. One notable case would be Scott Peterson of Scott & Laci infamy. He wore full evening attire to his wedding with the hapless Laci. In the published photo in the tabloids, it appeared to be broad daylight.

In the debate between ancient precedent vs. current usage, where, then, does the despised notch-lapel DJ/tuxedo fit? It has both the sanction of precedent, notch lapel DJs having been worn in the pre-WWI era, and no one can deny their current popularity.

I mean, Manton, how can you state that the practice of wearing white ties with a dinner jacket has been rendered inappropriate by current practice, yet inveigh, as you do, against the notch lapel, which is supported both by precedent and most emphatically in current practice.

That said, I personally would never acquire a notch-lapel DJ--in the unlikely event I should ever have occasion to wear a DJ--but I cannot in confidence tell somebody that it is "bad form" or sartorially incorrect.
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