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Ambrosi Napoli - Page 109

post #1621 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Yes, versus other Neapolitan tailors, the prices are obviously much higher at Rubinacci. I just don't see why that is a meaningful comparison.

As we've discussed before, you aren't just paying for a suit or jacket when you see a tailor. You are paying for reputation, service, and reliability. If the other Neapolitan tailors had to build out their operations to adequately service American and Asian clients like Rubinacci does, and maintain the same quality, their prices would all go up considerably. This is the case with any tailoring shop anywhere--not just in Naples. It costs more to run a global operation and meet the service expectations of international clientele.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

I think Marco's point is that Rubinacci's (and Liverano's) margins are higher than the US/UK tailors because of the cheaper labor, and also higher than the smaller Italian tailors notwithstanding the additional overhead from storefront/traveling. But of course you have no choice but to pay the margin if you want a Rubinacci / Liverano garment.

Basically yes,it is mostly about margins, and I also understand that they operate a multi location business, but as the production is mostly still made in Naples (more then one source has told me that the Tailors in Milan simply do finishing alteration and obviously fitting), the production cost are the same and the margin still very high to be justified under the business model explanation. There was a post I once read on the LL before being banned about a Rubinacci client, being picked up in Rome by a chauffeur driven car, brought to Naples with arranged accommodation, dined and wined all at MR expenses, I sort of understand why he then makes up back the money from charging clients that much, but are all those extra worth it? There is a lot of the Neapolitan welcoming way of doing business in those behaviours and I have seen it in other tailors to a less extent, but they are still charging less...
post #1622 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

I think Marco's point is that Rubinacci's (and Liverano's) margins are higher than the US/UK tailors because of the cheaper labor, and also higher than the smaller Italian tailors notwithstanding the additional overhead from storefront/traveling. But of course you have no choice but to pay the margin if you want a Rubinacci / Liverano garment.

I understand and acknowledge the difference in margins. But again, I don't see why that is relevant.

Assume all of the "top" tailors in the world charge the same price for a suit. And all suits are of the same style and fit, and service and quality are all otherwise the same. In that case the rational choice is to pick the one with the lowest price, even if his margins are the highest. I would not pay more for another tailor because he has lower margins.

So, why should it matter to anyone what Rubinacci's margins are? What truly matters is if you can get the same quality of product and service for a lower price. In my judgment, I cannot. In fact, so long as the prices are in line with the market, I prefer my tailor to have higher margins. It means he is on firmer financial footing and I have to worry less about him going out of business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric View Post

Right, my point exactly - that's Rubi - Liverano - Camps - Cifo - Huntsman - Logsdail, with the vast majority being 20-30% cheaper (Corvato, Nicolosi, Despos, etc. are all closer to $4.5-$5K). Both the Milanese and Roman Caraceni are about 4,000 euros.

Unless your argument is that A&S, Caraceni, Knize, Formosa, Despos, Dege, R. Anderson etc. etc. are 'less comparable shops.' Simply put, Rubi is firmly ensconced in the 95th percentile (in terms of price). Nothing wrong with that - I firmly believe businesses should charge what the market will bear, but I just take issue with the notion that they're in-line with the competition.

Poole is also no where close to Huntsman, but smack in the middle of SR territory - they charge 2,700 gbp CMT, so I assume their full price, excl. VAT, is about 3,000 gbp.

No, my argument was a counter-argument to the oft-made claim that Rubinacci's prices are higher than all others, when in truth, they are one of many well-known tailors in the same price range. You listed some of them. That there are cheaper tailors out there is immaterial. The point is that Rubinacci is not an outlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post


Basically yes,it is mostly about margins, and I also understand that they operate a multi location business, but as the production is mostly still made in Naples (more then one source has told me that the Tailors in Milan simply do finishing alteration and obviously fitting), the production cost are the same and the margin still very high to be justified under the business model explanation. There was a post I once read on the LL before being banned about a Rubinacci client, being picked up in Rome by a chauffeur driven car, brought to Naples with arranged accommodation, dined and wined all at MR expenses, I sort of understand why he then makes up back the money from charging clients that much, but are all those extra worth it? There is a lot of the Neapolitan welcoming way of doing business in those behaviours and I have seen it in other tailors to a less extent, but they are still charging less...

Again, why do I care if my tailor has high margins? I care about the price I'm paying versus what I'd pay elsewhere for the same product and service. I've never heard anyone fault Rubinacci for the quality of their product--quite the opposite, in fact. Richard Anderson himself commented that the fit of my Rubinacci suit was spectacular. Other Neapolitan tailors have confided in me that Rubinacci is the best in the city, though a terrible value.

If Rubinacci's higher margins on tailoring allow them to deliver a top-of-the-class garment, and also put me in a car and get me a nice meal from time to time, for the same price I'd pay at many other tailors of similar reputation, what the heck is there to complain about?

If there is another Neapolitan tailor that visits the U.S. five to six times a year, with a transparent price list, that delivers on time, is reasonably likely to be around in 20 to 30 years, and makes to Rubinacci's level of quality, please let me know.
post #1623 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

No, my argument was a counter-argument to the oft-made claim that Rubinacci's prices are higher than all others, when in truth, they are one of many well-known tailors in the same price range. You listed some of them. That there are cheaper tailors out there is immaterial. The point is that Rubinacci is not an outlier.

I have never heard anyone, certainly not me, state that Rubinacci's prices are higher than all others.

If Rubi is in the top 5% of 'top' tailors by price, then it is certainly an outlier. Just because a handful of other firms have similar prices, doesn't mean that they don't all deviate meaningfully from the average of 'top' tailors.
post #1624 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric View Post

You enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

Arguing is mafoofun.

post #1625 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric View Post

You enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. If Rubi is in the top 5% of 'top' tailors by price, then it is certainly an outlier. Just because a handful of other firms have similar prices, doesn't mean that they don't all deviate meaningfully from the average of 'top' tailors.

No, I like arguing when people say stupid things.

Compared to the total universe of what you call "top" bespoke tailors, you can argue that Rubinacci (as a "five-percenter") is an outlier. However, that context is useless. It comes down to what you consider "top."

Taken to the extreme, people looking for a budget tailor in Indonesia are not cross-shopping Rubinacci, and budget tailors in Indonesia are not doing what Rubinacci does. Well, based on what friends have experienced, places like A&S don't do what Rubinacci does. Specifically, they will not fit you (at least, foreign clients) as fastidiously and will send you off after they've done "enough." In my experience, Rubinacci will keep going until it is right.

Thus, the meaningful comparison is versus tailors of similar reputation providing a similar level of product quality and client service. Amongst those tailors, some of which you named, Rubinacci is not an outlier.
post #1626 of 1859
Let's get back on topic. Salvatore makes a great trouser, some of the best I own. I think his decision to pair up with people like The Armoury is a good move on many levels. The market will set the price, from the looks of it they haven't had any issues booking customers in HK at these prices so why would NYC be any different?
post #1627 of 1859
Obviously, the broader market will pay what it pays. The point is that an informed consumer might not want to follow the market. As you say yourself, going directly to Rubinacci would not cost you any more. I should think that would deeply impact your calculus.
post #1628 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

No, I like arguing when people say stupid things.

Compared to the total universe of what you call "top" bespoke tailors, you can argue that Rubinacci (as a "five-percenter") is an outlier. However, that context is useless. It comes down to what you consider "top."

Taken to the extreme, people looking for a budget tailor in Indonesia are not cross-shopping Rubinacci, and budget tailors in Indonesia are not doing what Rubinacci does. Well, based on what friends have experienced, places like A&S don't do what Rubinacci does. Specifically, they will not fit you (at least, foreign clients) as fastidiously and will send you off after they've done "enough." In my experience, Rubinacci will keep going until it is right.

Thus, the meaningful comparison is versus tailors of similar reputation providing a similar level of product quality and client service. Amongst those tailors, some of which you named, Rubinacci is not an outlier.

What rubbish. You're either dense, or like to distort other people's statements to support your own flimsy stand.

No one has tried comparing budget tailors in Asia to Rubi. The simple fact remains that compared to the vast majority of its cohorts in London, Italy and America, Rubinacci is on the expensive side of things. By any statistical mark, that makes his pricing an outlier.

You haven't used A&S or Knize or Formosa or Caraceni, so your blithe disregard of them is indicative of your idiocy.
post #1629 of 1859
ITT people argue with Foo and get mad.
post #1630 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

ITT people argue with Foo and get mad.

I know, I know. I really shouldn't have fallen into the trap. But, well, here I am.
post #1631 of 1859
What the hell does ITT mean? When I look it up I get a lot of different answers. I am assuming it doesn't mean "I'd Tap That" in this context...
post #1632 of 1859
In this thread
post #1633 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

ITT people argue with Foo and get mad.

I'm surprised things have stayed so low key in his shoe thread.

It's a shame I won't be in New York next week. I feel like a meetup ( like the one I am trying to put together the following week) at the Ambrosi trunk show would be pretty epic.
post #1634 of 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric View Post

What rubbish. You're either dense, or like to distort other people's statements to support your own flimsy stand.

No one has tried comparing budget tailors in Asia to Rubi. The simple fact remains that compared to the vast majority of its cohorts in London, Italy and America, Rubinacci is on the expensive side of things. By any statistical mark, that makes his pricing an outlier.

You haven't used A&S or Knize or Formosa or Caraceni, so your blithe disregard of them is indicative of your idiocy.

I like to think clearly about what people are really arguing before I respond. You should do the same. I never said you are comparing budget Asian tailors to Rubinacci. I was establishing a principle using an obvious, uncontroversial example. The point to take away from the reference to the hypothetical budget tailor in Indonesia is that different tailors provide different levels of quality and service. Hence to assess a tailor's pricing relative to others in any meaningful fashion, you wuold need to account for the quality and service offered.

Knize does not visit the U.S. Formosa just started visiting and has not firmly established its U.S. operations. Time will tell whether they are able to keep it up, and how regularly. Caraceni pricing varies with the Caraceni in question. Last I checked, the Roman Caraceni charged a price in line with Rubinacci's. A&S is well-known for their limited fitting poicy. I have seen this in action with friends who have not been able to find satisfaction with them, despite clear errors in the tailoring.

The above examples are either not similar enough to Rubinacci for useful price comparison, or are in fact similarly priced.

Your attempt to insult my intelligence that I haven't tried A&A myself is silly. I don't need to be an A&S client to be familiar with how they treat clients. Anyway, following the same rationale, as a non-client of Rubinacci, you have no grounds for evaluating their pricing.
post #1635 of 1859
I'm done, you win. Rubi's pricing is in line, or perhaps even economical, with their competition.
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