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Is this what modern Feminism strives to bring us? - Page 13

post #181 of 192
I don't see what the big controversy is. Basically, one side is saying that evolutionarily, males are amoral dirtbags and the other side is all outraged about it. No one seems to be justifying anything as far as I can tell.
post #182 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I don't see what the big controversy is. Basically, one side is saying that evolutionarily, males are amoral dirtbags and the other side is all outraged about it. No one seems to be justifying anything as far as I can tell.
Indeed. The fact that men have a "natural" tendency to rape doesn't make it okay (to understand isn't the same as to forgive). Women clearly don't wont to be raped, and since we live in a society where women and men are treated equal, we should do what we can to stop it from happening.
post #183 of 192
Coming to a 'murrican city near you soon...

Slutwalk spreads to U.S. streets
post #184 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Bardamu View Post
Coming to a 'murrican city near you soon...

Slutwalk spreads to U.S. streets
I'm so proud:
Quote:
In San Francisco, SlutWalk organizers want to make their protest a family event. “Singles, couples, parents, sisters, brothers, children, friends,” the SlutWalk SF BAY Facebook page announces. “Come walk or roll or strut or holler or stomp with us.”
post #185 of 192
A family event! Kinda like the Folsom Street Fair!
post #186 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I don't see what the big controversy is. Basically, one side is saying that evolutionarily, males are amoral dirtbags and the other side is all outraged about it. No one seems to be justifying anything as far as I can tell.
You are more nuanced than this, mantonio. It's the way the discussion is going. You don't see the bizarre tangentials here, weird connections that seem utterly meaningless when compared to the HUGE amounts of social science research done into the situation of rape? I mean, "men suck, so they rape?" WtF? Inherent in that is a sort of "boys will be boys" sort of chauvinism. It may not be an explicit justification, but the loose nature of the connections and disinterest in seeing the complexity of the situation certain implicitly seems to look for one. As well, while it is good to want to stop rape, trying to do it through these sorts of weird logical leaps doesn't seem the way. It vastly ignores the incredible complexity of the issue and tries to simplify it down to the point of seriously seeming nonsensical. AGAIN, unless (as I said earlier) we are using REALLY narrow definitions of rape along the lines of the release of specific chemicals, neurons firing, etc. The wide nature it is being discussed here, though, makes NO sense whatsoever. It is meaningless to discuss rape just as "some sort of thing men do." Divorcing it from real social effects and complexity is absurd.
post #187 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
You are more nuanced than this, mantonio. It's the way the discussion is going. You don't see the bizarre tangentials here, weird connections that seem utterly meaningless when compared to the HUGE amounts of social science research done into the situation of rape?

I mean, "men suck, so they rape?" WtF? Inherent in that is a sort of "boys will be boys" sort of chauvinism. It may not be an explicit justification, but the loose nature of the connections and disinterest in seeing the complexity of the situation certain implicitly seems to look for one.

As well, while it is good to want to stop rape, trying to do it through these sorts of weird logical leaps doesn't seem the way. It vastly ignores the incredible complexity of the issue and tries to simplify it down to the point of seriously seeming nonsensical.

AGAIN, unless (as I said earlier) we are using REALLY narrow definitions of rape along the lines of the release of specific chemicals, neurons firing, etc. The wide nature it is being discussed here, though, makes NO sense whatsoever.

I haven't read it all carefully, but the notion that men rape because of inner biological drives and proclivities does not strike me as controvesial. Men do all kinds of good and bad things based on biological drives that have been influenced by evolution.

I mean, there's a biological reason why criminals of all kinds are overwhelmingly male. Rape is no different. What's the point of getting angry at that?
post #188 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I haven't read it all carefully, but the notion that men rape because of inner biological drives and proclivities does not strike me as controvesial. Men do all kinds of good and bad things based on biological drives that have been influenced by evolution. I mean, there's a biological reason why criminals of all kinds are overwhelmingly male. Rape is no different. What's the point of getting angry at that?
This isn't really what they've been saying, and the ways in which they are arguing that "biological drive" is tangential, circumstantial to the point of being utterly meaningless. "Well, because Osama bin Laden has several letters the same as Obama, and both have skin that's not quite white, and because Obama is president of the united states, and the US has Area 51, which has aliens, therefore.... Osama is an alien under the control of Obama!" I mean, that's basically what's going on here. Women getting wet to avoid pain, unattractive men seeing rape 'as a way to procreate', etc. Rape is a complex social phenomenon with vast complexity more than just "kinda forcefully trying to mate." Without incredibly narrow, specific definitions of the behaviors based on real chemical, quantifiable, or observable measures, it's all just mental masturbatory fantasy WHY these things happen. Unless the definition of rape is "the release of compound XyZ at specific time interval ABC in relation to other organism D" or something, it's goofy to try and say various complex physical reactions are anything specific. You are then thrown back onto a socialized, or social science, definition based on power and discourse, or rape as a phenomenon happening in social settings with real effects, results, and impact. THAT'S why the social-scientisty folks here are getting a little pissy at the rather slippery, "easy" categories at play by the other side. I'm seriously done here, though. Bored this morning waiting for the car to pick me up. Knew I should have just watched "Fawlty Towers" instead.
post #189 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I haven't read it all carefully, but the notion that men rape because of inner biological drives and proclivities does not strike me as controvesial. Men do all kinds of good and bad things based on biological drives that have been influenced by evolution.

I mean, there's a biological reason why criminals of all kinds are overwhelmingly male. Rape is no different. What's the point of getting angry at that?

The argument was centered around the idea of whether those inner biological drives were evolved traits, or something else. While fun to debate, it is only nominally relevant to how society views the issue of rape.
post #190 of 192
..
post #191 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I don't see what the big controversy is. Basically, one side is saying that evolutionarily, males are amoral dirtbags and the other side is all outraged about it. No one seems to be justifying anything as far as I can tell.

what I see is people presenting baseless opinions on ev psych, the more educated posters are correcting them. I'm certainly not presenting social morality as some amazing thing totally in line with what I personally believe, but lets just say when rach, philosophe and I are calling bullshit on some social science you guys should at least take a little pause before agreeing with the people we contradict.
post #192 of 192
Dress provocatively, get upset when men are provoked.
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