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Gaziano & Girling Appreciation & Shoe Appreciation Thread (including reviews, purchases, pictures, etc...) - Page 119

post #1771 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick A View Post

And another...Holden in Black Deco Calf
350[/CENTER
532

Love that Deco calf's faded/purplish accent on the toe, but should probably stick to neutral colored polish biggrin.gif
post #1772 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmoore1855 View Post

I don't believe they are hand welted, only hand lasted

This is correct. I asked Tony to clarify this during the trunk show. By hand lasted it means that the leather is stretched over the last by hand. He and Dean have both also said that the only machine used in the construction is the one which does the good year welting.

Interestingly, and I kind of hope DWF weighs his opinion on this, but when talking about this Tony brought up that the Goodyear machines used are all almost 100 years old, and can require the same amount of skill to Goodyear welt the shoe as it would take to hand welt the shoes.
post #1773 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mktitsworth View Post


This is correct. I asked Tony to clarify this during the trunk show. By hand lasted it means that the leather is stretched over the last by hand. He and Dean have both also said that the only machine used in the construction is the one which does the good year welting.
Interestingly, and I kind of hope DWF weighs his opinion on this, but when talking about this Tony brought up that the Goodyear machines used are all almost 100 years old, and can require the same amount of skill to Goodyear welt the shoe as it would take to hand welt the shoes.


If I remember correctly, DWF's point was not regarding skills required but about sturdiness of the construction.  Gemming is still gemming.

 

post #1774 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mktitsworth View Post

This is correct. I asked Tony to clarify this during the trunk show. By hand lasted it means that the leather is stretched over the last by hand. He and Dean have both also said that the only machine used in the construction is the one which does the good year welting.
Interestingly, and I kind of hope DWF weighs his opinion on this, but when talking about this Tony brought up that the Goodyear machines used are all almost 100 years old, and can require the same amount of skill to Goodyear welt the shoe as it would take to hand welt the shoes.

not unless u don't count closing as 'construction' and using a buffer for finishing
Lobb st James machine closes
Edited by Pliny - 11/12/11 at 1:12am
post #1775 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mktitsworth View Post

Interestingly, and I kind of hope DWF weighs his opinion on this, but when talking about this Tony brought up that the Goodyear machines used are all almost 100 years old, and can require the same amount of skill to Goodyear welt the shoe as it would take to hand welt the shoes.

They're 100 years old in all the factories...
post #1776 of 21771
God those Decos look beautiful in brown leathers...
post #1777 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post




If I remember correctly, DWF's point was not regarding skills required but about sturdiness of the construction.  Gemming is still gemming.

 


exactly.

for this money you can have something else...foo.gif
post #1778 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mktitsworth View Post

This is correct. I asked Tony to clarify this during the trunk show. By hand lasted it means that the leather is stretched over the last by hand. He and Dean have both also said that the only machine used in the construction is the one which does the good year welting.
Interestingly, and I kind of hope DWF weighs his opinion on this, but when talking about this Tony brought up that the Goodyear machines used are all almost 100 years old, and can require the same amount of skill to Goodyear welt the shoe as it would take to hand welt the shoes.

titty, you cannot order a proper shirt. why are you talking about shoes and construction, honestly? no offense...
post #1779 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzl View Post

exactly.
for this money you can have something else...foo.gif

The AntiGem is back!
post #1780 of 21771
Thread Starter 
Blacksole-1.jpg
post #1781 of 21771
When a shoe is handwelted, the insole must first be chosen for the proper density and the correct thickness. And then it must be prepared, individually, to receive the stitches.

This means cutting channels into the substance of the insole to create the "holdfast." That in itself is a task/technique that requires a certain deliberation and skill..

Then the holdfast is "holed." And that requires judgement, fastidious care, and time...especially with regard to the way the stitches are spaced around the toe.

Thread must be prepared, waxed and bristled....another critical process that benefits from concentration and years of experience. The wax itself must be prepared by hand and requires relatively scarce materials such as pitch and rosin. The objective being water-tightness, a locking action on the thread, and even an anti-bacterial action.

Every stitch that is placed in the shoe has to have the shoemaker's full attention. Spacing, direction, placement, tightness.

When done, the handwelted shoe is held together by heavy thread, tar, and good quality leather--all in direct connection. This connection is tight, waterproof, and intended...designed really...to last for decades and even centuries--as many archeological artifacts attest to.

This is all completely absent in the GY welting process.

The machine has a fixed stroke--no lengthening or shortening of the stitch even if it means that the inseam is weakened. Stitches are tight up to a point, but only up to a point, wax non-existent or designed for lubrication.

The insole can be nearly any substrate that will accept glue--from ratty, thin, loose leather to fiberboard. The holdfast is linen or canvas (gemming) and it is cemented to the insole.

Fundamentally, this cement is what holds the shoe together.

How in the world does anyone with any sense of proportion and understanding of the mechanics of materials make the statement, with a straight face, that GY requires the same skill or can produce the same quality as handwelting?
Edited by DWFII - 11/12/11 at 5:35am
post #1782 of 21771
^^ the same person who claims only 1 machine instead of at least 3 in construction- apparently. Beautiful shoes all the same.
post #1783 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post

^^ the same person who claims only 1 machine instead of at least 3 in construction- apparently. Beautiful shoes all the same.

I agree...beautiful shoes.

Three machines...I doubt that too, unless they are hand stitching the outsoles. And that would shock me...it takes just as long (longer) and requires as much or more skill than handwelting.

Hell, I suspect they even have a machine to apply the cement. I've seen machines for doing that.
post #1784 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

If I remember correctly, DWF's point was not regarding skills required but about sturdiness of the construction.  Gemming is still gemming.

Certainly that has been a major point which he has gotten across well. Certainly I'm not arguing about this. This would be asking for a different opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post

not unless u don't count closing as 'construction' and using a buffer for finishing
Lobb st James machine closes

It is entirely possible that I am misrepresenting the statement. I do clearly remember Dean Girling saying something to that effect - something like the only part of the process done by machine was the welting, but the more I think about it that statement and the one in reference to Tony were probably within the context of talking about the Deco line. The statement from Dean was during our conversation at the trunk show in April.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

When a shoe is handwelted, the insole must first be chosen for the proper density and the correct thickness. And then it must be prepared, individually, to receive the stitches.

This means cutting channels into the substance of the insole to create the "holdfast." That in itself is a task/technique that requires a certain deliberation and skill..

Then the holdfast is "holed." And that requires judgement, fastidious care, and time...especially with regard to the way the stitches are spaced around the toe.

Thread must be prepared, waxed and bristled....another critical process that benefits from concentration and years of experience. The wax itself must be prepared by hand and requires relatively scarce materials such as pitch and rosin. The objective being water-tightness, a locking action on the thread, and even an anti-bacterial action.

Every stitch that is placed in the shoe has to have the shoemaker's full attention. Spacing, direction, placement, tightness.

When done, the handwelted shoe is held together by heavy thread, tar, and good quality leather--all in direct connection. This connection is tight, waterproof, and intended...designed really...to last for decades and even centuries--as many archeological artifacts attest to.

This is all completely absent in the GY welting process.

The machine has a fixed stroke--no lengthening or shortening of the stitch even if it means that the inseam is weakened. Stitches are tight up to a point, but only up to a point, wax non-existent or designed for lubrication.

The insole can be nearly any substrate that will accept glue--from ratty, thin, loose leather to fiberboard. The holdfast is linen or canvas (gemming) and it is cemented to the insole.

Fundamentally, this cement is what holds the shoe together.

How in the world does anyone with any sense of proportion and understanding of the mechanics of materials make the statement, with a straight face, that GY requires the same skill or can produce the same quality as handwelting?

I offer no opinion about the statement, but I can attest that it was made. I was speaking with Tony about the differences in construction between a fully handmade shoe and one that was bench made. He also mentioned the difference in stitching and showed me two different samples - one bespoke and one RTW - and I could clearly see the difference between the two.

I have no recollection of him saying the two techniques were equivalent, nor do I believe that he implied it. I can immediately recall a number of things which he did say that would seem contrary to such a statement. He did say, and it may have just been a musing comment, that given their age and esoteric nature, the operation of the goodyear welting machine could require the same amount of skill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I agree...beautiful shoes.

Three machines...I doubt that too, unless they are hand stitching the outsoles. And that would shock me...it takes just as long (longer) and requires as much or more skill than handwelting.

Hell, I suspect they even have a machine to apply the cement. I've seen machines for doing that.

If you would like, I can give you my entire recollection of both conversations, however I have been hesitant to do so for exactly the reason that I do not want to misstate or misrepresent any of the statements made by either gentleman during their events.
post #1785 of 21771
Quote:
Originally Posted by luk-cha View Post

Blacksole-1.jpg

That is some crazy tight waist....looks phenomenal in all black drool.gif

I wonder how good an all-black sole will look on regular RTW/MTO models...probably nothing close
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