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Gaziano & Girling Appreciation & Shoe Appreciation Theard - Page 421

post #6301 of 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by EBugatti View Post

^^^ Stitchy, that's a common problem with channeled soles. Just glue them back down.

 

Pardon my naivety here: why would channeled soles have any bearing on this?  Are you saying it's standard practice for some makers to laminate an extra thin layer over their channeled soles?  

 

My understanding was that channeled soles always open eventually.  I didn't realise some makers actually covered up the whole sole.  That kind of feels like cheating - sticking on an extra layer to cover them, really?!

post #6302 of 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

cool, thanks, guys.

 

leather cement, check cobbler.  and make sure you use some clamp to apply pressure to hold them together.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

 

Pardon my naivety here: why would channeled soles have any bearing on this?  Are you saying it's standard practice for some makers to laminate an extra thin layer over their channeled soles?  

 

My understanding was that channeled soles always open eventually.  I didn't realise some makers actually covered up the whole sole.  That kind of feels like cheating - sticking on an extra layer to cover them, really?!

 

They are not covering a thin layer over the channeled soles.  When channeled soles are constructed, the outsole is being cut open at the edge.  The flap is then wet and turned 90 degress away from the sole.  The outsole is then grooved and stitched to the welt.  After the welt lockstitch is done, the flap is wet and turned back to cover the groove and cement together so you won't be able to see any welt stitching from the bottom.

 

The problem lies what angles those channel soles are cut, it could be cut horizontally parallel to the outsole, or it could be cut at a biase towards the insole.  The latter is a better construction technique IMO.

post #6303 of 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

Pardon my naivety here: why would channeled soles have any bearing on this?  Are you saying it's standard practice for some makers to laminate an extra thin layer over their channeled soles?  

My understanding was that channeled soles always open eventually.  I didn't realise some makers actually covered up the whole sole.  That kind of feels like cheating - sticking on an extra layer to cover them, really?!
sloppy and corner cutting
post #6304 of 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

 

 

They are not covering a thin layer over the channeled soles.  When channeled soles are constructed, the outsole is being cut open at the edge.  The flap is then wet and turned 90 degress away from the sole.  The outsole is then grooved and stitched to the welt.  After the welt lockstitch is done, the flap is wet and turned back to cover the groove and cement together so you won't be able to see any welt stitching from the bottom.

 

The problem lies what angles those channel soles are cut, it could be cut horizontally parallel to the outsole, or it could be cut at a biase towards the insole.  The latter is a better construction technique IMO.

 

 

Thanks for explaining - I didn't realise they cut a big flap horizontally like that.  The only times I've seen this in process, it's been an angled, almost vertical slit up through the sole, leaving a very narrow gap to make the groove.  Hence the term "channel".  And those always open up after a while.  No surprise if these big glued flaps separate sometimes then...sounds like toe taps are an essential for this type of sole.

 

Man, I love this about SF.  I only discovered the forum through looking up stuff about shoes, and still learn something new frequently.  Thank you.

post #6305 of 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post


I didn't realise they cut a big flap horizontally like that.  The only times I've seen this in process, it's been an angled, almost vertical slit up through the sole, leaving a very narrow gap to make the groove.

Here is a picture (taken from Carmina), which shows the opened channel,
while the sole is actually being stitched.

post #6306 of 13279
Probably stating the obvious but it is worth noting that some outsoles are sewn using an "open" channel--a groove, really. It is slightly better than stitching "aloft" (no channel, no groove) but not by much. It doesn't protect the stitches much at all...allowing immediate exposure to grit and moisture. But it is the most expedient (cheap) way to approach the problem. The sewing is done with a machine.

A step up would be a vertical channel. Several types of machines will make the channel as the sewing is done. The channel can be closed and the stitches are well protected. And there is no real risk of a loose or flapping channel. The closed vertical channel is only barely visible and requires no glue or cement.

What is shown in the photo is a different kind of channel--one that has also been cut by a machine. It can be done by hand and sometimes is, but esp. for production work, such laborious attention would be impractical. When done correctly the outsoles can be sewn by a machine as in BS's photo and then the channel will be glued down. The channel cover is usually pretty thin and the glue is usually some variation of wheat paste, potato flour or even animal glue. These glues are not stable in moist conditions and when the channel cover is laid back down the leather is often moist. The stitches are nigh on invisible initially and well protected, but not for long...as can be seen.

The typical hand cut outsole channel is cut at an angle from some point close to, or at, the edge of the outsole. This is a very good solution but is the most time intensive. The outsole is generally sewn by hand and the channel closed by hand. Because the leather covering the stitches is much thicker, the channel tends to stay closed. Glues are used as a second or third line of defense rather than a first.The stitches are well protected, entirely unseen, and all other things being equal, the hand cut, angled channel will afford the longest wear.

Even so, eventually all methods leave the stitches exposed as the leather wears away.

A good leather cement (there's a difference between traditional glues and cements) will remedy the problem. Superglue will work but it is overkill and will stiffen the leather and make it brittle.

--
Edited by DWFII - 12/26/12 at 7:13am
post #6307 of 13279
^^ DWFII - that is really great info, thanks. do yo have any personal recs for a specific type/brand of leather cement? ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

leather cement, check cobbler.  and make sure you use some clamp to apply pressure to hold them together.

thanks, i am trying to a find a place that has some. also, not sure how to clamp it while it dries. dont want to crush the toe, but it will need pressure till the cement dries.
post #6308 of 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

^^ DWFII - that is really great info, thanks. do yo have any personal recs for a specific type/brand of leather cement? ^^
thanks, i am trying to a find a place that has some. also, not sure how to clamp it while it dries. dont want to crush the toe, but it will need pressure till the cement dries.

If you use a leather cement you will not need to clamp. Leather cement is typically a neoprene based contact cement. You will need to hammer the channel cover down, firmly however.

If you are in the States, Barge is the most readily available...in 4(?) ounce tubes.
post #6309 of 13279
Thanks DWF, insightful as always. Thanks very much!
post #6310 of 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

If you use a leather cement you will not need to clamp. Leather cement is typically a neoprene based contact cement. You will need to hammer the channel cover down, firmly however.
If you are in the States, Barge is the most readily available...in 4(?) ounce tubes.

thank you very much for the rec. much appreciated.
post #6311 of 13279
post #6312 of 13279

+ 1 on the info. my EG/RL boot pulled the same trick is why i'm interested.

post #6313 of 13279
Yes, that's the product. It used to come in a red and yellow tube but they recently revised the formula to use methyl-ethyl ketone as a solvent. So don't go huffing it.

There is also a water based/water solved neoprene contact cement on the market...can be found in Lowes, etc., http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=754259a9-824a-4f42-bee4-b302917369ea. It is used for placing and adhering formica countertopping. Don't think it comes in small tubes.

Also Titan DX ...that's what I use.
post #6314 of 13279

Learning something new from DWFII and Bengal-S every day!

post #6315 of 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Yes, that's the product. It used to come in a red and yellow tube but they recently revised the formula to use methyl-ethyl ketone as a solvent. So don't go huffing it.
There is also a water based/water solved neoprene contact cement on the market...can be found in Lowes, etc., http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=754259a9-824a-4f42-bee4-b302917369ea. It is used for placing and adhering formica countertopping. Don't think it comes in small tubes.
Also Titan DX ...that's what I use.

most excellent. thank you. i bought the tupe from amazon, and hope it does the trick. again, thank you very much for all your expert help. very kind of you.
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