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Gaziano & Girling Appreciation & Shoe Appreciation Theard - Page 796

post #11926 of 13281
After the EG fiasco I have read about I am a bit wary of working with a reseller for bespoke. Regardless of reputation because apparently that counts for nothing and things can sour with no notice.
post #11927 of 13281
I mean Edwards of Manchester
post #11928 of 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanielca View Post

After the EG fiasco I have read about I am a bit wary of working with a reseller for bespoke. Regardless of reputation because apparently that counts for nothing and things can sour with no notice.

What EG fiasco?
post #11929 of 13281
...what's funny about all this nitpickery, and I'm guilty too, is how Joe and Jane Normal will never see any of the blemishes and spots we do. They don't care, they'll look at our face when talking with us, or they'll merely say that someone has nice shoes or cute colour on them. We really do have too high hopes for RTW or too much idle time to talk about spots and such on a style forum. I can understand this with bespoke dudes, but it's more humourous with factory-made goods -- and yes, I'm guilty too. Could we worse though, we could be talking Cole Haans here. Well, plenty of trouble and time would be saved if a maker would send along a load of photos of the finished piece, and the customer could zoom in and ask for corrections and such before anything is shipped. I'm about to end this rant with a full stop.
post #11930 of 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodog View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanielca View Post

After the EG fiasco I have read about I am a bit wary of working with a reseller for bespoke. Regardless of reputation because apparently that counts for nothing and things can sour with no notice.

What EG fiasco?

Read the correction above smile.gif
post #11931 of 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

...what's funny about all this nitpickery, and I'm guilty too, is how Joe and Jane Normal will never see any of the blemishes and spots we do. They don't care, they'll look at our face when talking with us, or they'll merely say that someone has nice shoes or cute colour on them. We really do have too high hopes for RTW or too much idle time to talk about spots and such on a style forum. I can understand this with bespoke dudes, but it's more humourous with factory-made goods -- and yes, I'm guilty too. Could we worse though, we could be talking Cole Haans here. Well, plenty of trouble and time would be saved if a maker would send along a load of photos of the finished piece, and the customer could zoom in and ask for corrections and such before anything is shipped. I'm about to end this rant with a full stop.

Agreed. Saves on the effort, shipping, wait time.
post #11932 of 13281
I don't agree, as I feel a product at this price range should at least look the part when new.

The benign stuff aside. Most of my issues were with heel noises, as I refuse to sound like a rocking chair as I walk down the hallway. The finishing part, I can handle myself. Which i shouldn't have to, but i do, just to spare Joe & Jane the eye sore...
post #11933 of 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

...what's funny about all this nitpickery...

The thing is that once upon a time, the founders of most of these companies would never have accepted or allowed many...most...of these issues to develop, much less go out the door. I suspect they were, initially at least, more like me in their passion and dedication--"believers" in best practices and unwilling to compromise much when it came to their shoes and that which they put their name on.

I've always thought and said that, at one point, a maker must decide whether to make shoes or to make money--because it's not possible to do both. Now, at one level, this is mostly just a matter of deciding what is to be "job one"--profit or shoes. But it nicely illustrates the "conundrum of the workshops."

The raw edge, for instance...a very small thing. Almost not worth mentioning. Certainly nothing to chew fingernails over. Yet there are three alternatives/solutions in such situations--folded edges, which solve the problem very nicely; bound edges, sometimes a bit "rough and ready" even in skilled hands; or beaded edges.

Most makers use a beaded edge. Some styles, such as whole cuts almost demand them--as in the photo. But if a beaded edge is wanted, the topline and other edges of the quarters or vamp, must be skived (beveled) down such that it not only doesn't present a raw edge but so that it snuggles up against the bead. When done correctly the bead becomes an extension of the topline and the raw edge of the leather is never seen.

Both all these solutions--folded edges, beaded edges--take time...and skill...which are certainly a factor if profit is "job one."

But more than that, it begs the question--one I have asked time out of mind--what specifically is it that the cachet brands are offering with their RTW shoes that elevates them...with regard to price...to the level of bespoke? What justifies charging such high prices over lower end, non-cachet brands constructed in an almost identical fashion and with materials that are near-as-nevermind similar enough that functionally most customers will never know or care? And which cost half or more less..and still bring their manufacturers sufficient profit margins to sustain a business, pay wages and grow?

In the end...because it all comes down, in the end, to profit margins and "job one"...at what price point is the "benign stuff" really benign and not a hallmark of indifference?

When is "nitpickery" justifiably fine tuned perception, and the lack of it an apathy born of "buyer's remorse."
--
Edited by DWFII - 5/14/14 at 6:53am
post #11934 of 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The thing is that once upon a time, the founders of most of these companies would never have accepted or allowed many...most...of these issues to develop, much less go out the door. I suspect they were, initially at least, more like me in their passion and dedication--"believers" in best practices and unwilling to compromise much when it came to their shoes and that which they put their name on.

I've always thought and said that, at one point, a maker must decide whether to make shoes or to make money--because it's not possible to do both. Now, at one level, this is mostly just a matter of deciding what is to be "job one"--profit or shoes. But it nicely illustrates the "conundrum of the workshops."

The raw edge, for instance...a very small thing. Almost not worth mentioning. Certainly nothing to chew fingernails over. Yet there are three alternatives/solutions in such situations--folded edges, which solve the problem very nicely; bound edges, sometimes a bit "rough and ready" even in skilled hands; or beaded edges.

Most makers use a beaded edge. Some styles, such as whole cuts almost demand them--as in the photo. But if a beaded edge is wanted, the topline and other edges of the quarters or vamp, must be skived (beveled) down such that it not only doesn't present a raw edge but so that it snuggles up against the bead. When done correctly the bead becomes an extension of the topline and the raw edge of the leather is never seen.

Both all these solutions--folded edges, beaded edges--take time...and skill...which are certainly a factor if profit is "job one."

But more than that, it begs the question--one I have asked time out of mind--what specifically is it that the cachet brands are offering with their RTW shoes that elevates them...with regard to price...to the level of bespoke? What justifies charging such high prices over lower end, non-cachet brands constructed in an almost identical fashion and with materials that are near-as-nevermind similar enough that functionally most customers will never know or care? And which cost half or more less..and still bring their manufacturers sufficient profit margins to sustain a business, pay wages and grow?

In the end...because it all comes down, in the end, to profit margins and "job one"...at what price point is the "benign stuff" really benign and not a hallmark of indifference?

When is "nitpickery" justifiably fine tuned perception, and the lack of it an apathy born of "buyer's remorse."
--

Thank you. Nobody could have said it better.

Although in a quote last year you did say (relating to a G&G GY shoe) "Just because a shoe is GY doesn't mean that it is not good quality in the overall scheme of things. G&G may be GY but they retain so many other aspects that we associate with quality that it's hard to hold the GY against them unless you're a somewhat crusty old snab who sees his beloved Trade being lost. Not with a bang but a whimper." somehow implying that you rank them sufficiently highly, even the RTW, that they may be worth paying the extra for.
post #11935 of 13281

GY welting is associated with quality shoes...and it has been this way for a very very long time.

 

lets not forget this...

post #11936 of 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelonius View Post

Thank you. Nobody could have said it better.

Although in a quote last year you did say (relating to a G&G GY shoe) "Just because a shoe is GY doesn't mean that it is not good quality in the overall scheme of things. G&G may be GY but they retain so many other aspects that we associate with quality that it's hard to hold the GY against them unless you're a somewhat crusty old snab who sees his beloved Trade being lost. Not with a bang but a whimper." somehow implying that you rank them sufficiently highly, even the RTW, that they may be worth paying the extra for.

Depends on how much more...and how far they have "fallen" from the standards and principles of the people who founded the company--how much "indifference" has set in, IOW.

And yes, I admire and like G&G...mostly for the design work and the finesse they bring to their shoes. I don't admire them for GY construction and even factoring in the "aesthetic" I am unconvinced that the pricing isn't at least as much "blue sky" and brand name cachet as workmanship or materials.
post #11937 of 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCK1 View Post

GY welting is associated with quality shoes...and it has been this way for a very very long time.

lets not forget this...

Only in the minds of people who can't see beyond price and expediency or who are ignorant of the alternatives.

GY is fundamentally a glue job. Any shoemaker worth his salt will acknowledge as much.

In the long view of things HW has been associated with quality far longer than GY (well less than a century). And in fact, from a shoemaker's perspective, HW has been (for hundreds and hundreds of years) the gold standard by which all other techniques are measured....and by which GY is found not only wanting, but pretending to be something it is not. A misdirection for drawing in/deceiving customers.

That's what we need to not forget.

--
Edited by DWFII - 5/14/14 at 7:44am
post #11938 of 13281

Yes, and which is no longer practical in a modern industrialized world with the exception in most cases being bespoke makers....in which case you pay thousands for this luxury.

 

 

I think you are holding G&G's ready-to-wear shoes up to too high of a standard...

They are nice...but they are by no means on the same level as bespoke.

 

They are made in a factory...not a shoemakers workshop...and they are readily available to the public.

 

They are still excellent quality shoes with many very desirable features (especially IMO in terms of aesthetics)...but they aren't meant to be bespoke shoes...

 

They are ready-to-wear...

post #11939 of 13281
DW, are there books on the history of shoemaking with nice coverage on factory-made pairs of the 20th century? I'd like to know more about how they used to make 'em, and how GW machines have changed things. I'm a bit reluctant to think we could ever shod all feet in 2014 with only hand-welted and made pairs, because The Gentle Craft doesn't appeal like, say, careers in law or business. We need alternative methods for OK shoes like Loake.
post #11940 of 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCK1 View Post

Yes, and which is no longer practical in a modern industrialized world with the exception in most cases being bespoke makers....in which case you pay thousands for this luxury.


I think you are holding G&G's ready-to-wear shoes up to too high of a standard...
They are nice...but they are by no means on the same level as bespoke.

They are made in a factory...not a shoemakers workshop...and they are readily available to the public.

They are still excellent quality shoes with many very desirable features (especially IMO in terms of aesthetics)...but they aren't meant to be bespoke shoes...

They are ready-to-wear...
several makers that compare in cost to GG hand welt their shoes, including Vass at half the cost...
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