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Trump is #2 in GOP Field - Page 363

post #5431 of 8748

Outkast feels the Johnson!

 

post #5432 of 8748
Outkast hasn't been relevant in ten years, which is still more recent than Johnson
post #5433 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

Just because you believe immigration may benefit the US doesnt mean you're 'against borders' or 'don't believe in the values set forth in the constitution'.
Can you show me where in the constitution it says that we should not have immigration?
This is also not true -  there are specific visas that are given to STEM immigrants.
This is idiotic, and also not true. They are coming because our JOBs are superior. Not our culture.

I didn't say we shouldn't have immigration. What I implied is that we did too much too fast. One party doesn't want to slow down at all and doesn't want to apply restrictions on the most dangerous places in the world.

Our economic system is tied to our culture. There's nothing stopping most of these nations from starting from scratch and attempting to implement something that more closely resembles what the U.S. has. To deny that our culture is superior to that of most third world countries is nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

what values?

First we'd have to agree that one party supports the constitution more than the other. We'd also have to agree that one party, while not perfect, favors individual freedom and state's rights over big government. There are exceptions to this (pot legalization, etc.), but as a general rule it applies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

you mean the constitution of a country that was built by immigrants from all nations coming together? 9 out of the 55 1787 delegates weren't even born in the US.

Things have changed since then. Explained below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

unless you completely ban all immigrants the new us citizens are going to continue to vote for the party that doesn't hate them.

I can't acknowledge that immigration can be good but also bad, depending on who you bring in, without hating every immigrant in the country?
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

oh noes the immigrants are coming to vote for the other party and ruin our country the way it is (which has been the argument for every wave of immigration. every few decades like clockwork)

Have all the immigrants we brought here been equal? My great grandmother who came from Italy - is she the equivalent of the Afghan immigrant who had a son on US soil that went on to murder 50 people in an Orlando nightclub? Did my great grandmother pose the same risk as Seddique Mateen? Do European immigrants pose the same risk as people we take from Somalia or Afghanistan?

Can we stop pretending at any point during this debate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

there's less than a million new naturalized us citizens every year, (3.6 million from 2010 to 2016, 10 since 2000). oh yeah there's a huge voting block. most immigrants dont even naturalize (like a two/thirds of the immigrant population dont ) and dont have voting rights. the ones that do naturalize tend to vote less than "native americans" (like one fourth less).

Voting isn't the only issue. Crime, entitlement spending, school burden, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

we don't have a one monolithic culture. our culture is a mixture of various cultures. our population isnt homogenous or indigenous. there's no american food that is indigenous to america because american culture is not indigenous to america because americans are not indigenous to america. the only thing superior about "american culture" is its relatively greater willingness to accept other cultures. nothing you eat on a daily basis is native to america. some immigrants brought it over from their country. natives adopted it and changed it and elaborated on it and made new things out of it.

So culture in the U.S. has remained the same between say 1900 and 2016? Has the culture of south Florida changed over the last 100 years? How about southern California? What caused that change? Maybe it was global warming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

have you ever walked in the kitchen of your favorite restaurant? have you ever looked at who's behind the counter at your local mom and pop store? are they also a part of big business?

And yet somehow meals managed to get served and lawns clipped before mass illegal immigration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

do you even understand the history of immigrants in america? everybody in the us trace most of their ancestry to people not from america. every wave of immigration has had backlash and hate from the earlier immigrants. "americans" (ie the ones who came earlier) hated the irish, the germans, the italians, mexicans, eastern europeans (particularly the jews), catholics, chinese/asians, now we're in a hate latinos and muslim phase. considering how there was an entire political party dedicated to hating on catholics and yet a hundred years later we got a catholic president, i think if we wait another hundred years we'll probably have a muslim president. every single time the argument for hate was that the new immigrant population doesnt assimilate into existing culture, is taking the jobs we don't want, and makes too many babies,

we're a nation of immigrants. that's a big reason why america is great. every other developed nation (most of europe, japan) has relatively huge issues with natural birth rates and an aging population. the us doesn't as much and it's not because the native population is pumping out babies

You still won't acknowledge that all immigrants are not equal. Concerns about some immigrants of the past might have been unjustified and bigoted, but that doesn't mean all concerns going forward will also be unjustified. Some are legitimate concerns, others are not.

You mentioned Irish and Muslims - anyone who is comparing Irish immigrants of the 1800s to the threat faced in 2016 by Muslim immigration is being dishonest and ignoring what has happened in parts of Europe.
post #5434 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

First we'd have to agree that one party supports the constitution more than the other. We'd also have to agree that one party, while not perfect, favors individual freedom and state's rights over big government. There are exceptions to this (pot legalization, etc.), but as a general rule it applies.

That's not at all biased. LOL.

That "etc" covers a lot more ground than just pot legalization. We have a whole gigantic thread on "police overreach and abuse" just as one neat little package of examples.
Quote:
Have all the immigrants we brought here been equal? My great grandmother who came from Italy - is she the equivalent of the Afghan immigrant who had a son on US soil that went on to murder 50 people in an Orlando nightclub? Did my great grandmother pose the same risk as Seddique Mateen? Do European immigrants pose the same risk as people we take from Somalia or Afghanistan?
How many people do you think the Mafia killed over the years, especially during Prohibition? It's a lot more than have been killed by Muslim-Americans, especially adjusted for the relative population of the country.

And, not surprisingly, there was a ton of anti-Italian sentiment back then. With pretty similar language to what you're using right now.
Quote:
So culture in the U.S. has remained the same between say 1900 and 2016?
The culture of the US changed drastically from 1900 to 1950 too. Which one is the "right" culture that we ought to be preserving? We've never had a static culture, and it's always been profoundly influenced by the particular waves of immigration that are occuring.
Edited by Gibonius - 9/13/16 at 4:06pm
post #5435 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post


How many people do you think the Maria killed over the years, especially during Prohibition?

Maria Soprano?
post #5436 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

I didn't say we shouldn't have immigration. What I implied is that we did too much too fast. One party doesn't want to slow down at all and doesn't want to apply restrictions on the most dangerous places in the world.

Our economic system is tied to our culture. There's nothing stopping most of these nations from starting from scratch and attempting to implement something that more closely resembles what the U.S. has. To deny that our culture is superior to that of most third world countries is nonsense.
First we'd have to agree that one party supports the constitution more than the other. We'd also have to agree that one party, while not perfect, favors individual freedom and state's rights over big government. There are exceptions to this (pot legalization, etc.), but as a general rule it applies.


Things have changed since then. Explained below.
I can't acknowledge that immigration can be good but also bad, depending on who you bring in, without hating every immigrant in the country?
Have all the immigrants we brought here been equal? My great grandmother who came from Italy - is she the equivalent of the Afghan immigrant who had a son on US soil that went on to murder 50 people in an Orlando nightclub? Did my great grandmother pose the same risk as Seddique Mateen? Do European immigrants pose the same risk as people we take from Somalia or Afghanistan?

Can we stop pretending at any point during this debate?
Voting isn't the only issue. Crime, entitlement spending, school burden, etc.
So culture in the U.S. has remained the same between say 1900 and 2016? Has the culture of south Florida changed over the last 100 years? How about southern California? What caused that change? Maybe it was global warming.
And yet somehow meals managed to get served and lawns clipped before mass illegal immigration.
You still won't acknowledge that all immigrants are not equal. Concerns about some immigrants of the past might have been unjustified and bigoted, but that doesn't mean all concerns going forward will also be unjustified. Some are legitimate concerns, others are not.

You mentioned Irish and Muslims - anyone who is comparing Irish immigrants of the 1800s to the threat faced in 2016 by Muslim immigration is being dishonest and ignoring what has happened in parts of Europe.

I don't particularly feel like quibbling over details but as general overarching point:

The arguments you're making against the most recent wave of immigrants (this wave of immigrants is more dangerous than previous ones, they bring more crime, entitlement spending, burden on schools, they don't assimilate) are the exact same arguments previous immigrants have made against new waves of immigration. If she's alive you should talk to your great grandmother. She was heavily discriminated against employment wise services wise. People complained they didn't assimilate and took menial jobs for less than what people used to. They were unamerian traitors who would defect back to Italy were a war to arise. They would be the ones clipping lawns, washing dishes, cleaning houses because that was the only jobs they could find. Same for the Irish. Same for Eastern Europeans. Same for the Chinese. Chinese were worse because they even looked different and were of a different race.

I'm not going to pretend terrorism was a big issue back then but youre wrong if you're arguing immigrants are the biggest force behind terrorist attacks. Numbers wise pro terror natives and inspired natives have committed way more acts of terrorism in developed nations

As for culture you're arguing the same point I am and we're talking over each other. You argued our culture is superior to other cultures (implying that's the reason people come and the reason why people should assimilate). My point was there is no one superior "our culture" because "our culture" is a mix of all other cultures. This is why culture constantly changes depending on which wave of immigrant comes. For example before the wave of Italians pizza and pasta was not a thing Americans would eat. Canned spaghetti didn't happen until end of world war 2 when Americans began to accept Italian culture and tried to incorporate into their own. Same with Chinese food. Same with German beers. Lagers weren't a thing before the Germans and Eastern Europeans. Now they're the biggest business in beer in the states

The vetting process for immigrant particularly from dangerous parts of the world is insanely bureaucratic and takes 3 years. Everything has to be documented even if your country is in no state to produce documents. The question is whether even that's enough to assuage public fears



This is a bunch of fear mongering. We don't need to resort to drastic measures like building an impossible wall or stopping all brown people immigration to solve it
post #5437 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

My point was there is no one superior "our culture" because "our culture" is a mix of all other cultures. This is why culture constantly changes depending on which wave of immigrant comes. For example before the wave of Italians pizza and pasta was not a thing Americans would eat. Canned spaghetti didn't happen until end of world war 2 when Americans began to accept Italian culture and tried to incorporate into their own. Same with Chinese food. Same with German beers. Lagers weren't a thing before the Germans and Eastern Europeans. Now they're the biggest business in beer in the states
The vetting process for immigrant particularly from dangerous parts of the world is insanely bureaucratic and takes 3 years. Everything has to be documented even if your country is in no state to produce documents. The question is whether even that's enough to assuage public fears
This is a bunch of fear mongering. We don't need to resort to drastic measures like building an impossible wall or stopping all brown people immigration to solve it

This is laughable. Pizza and spaghetti eating are not culture. That is such a bad example.
FYI, tomato sauce is not Italian culture, just like fried potato sticks are not French culture, just thought I reveal this to you.
Have you ever lived anywhere in the World other than USA? How did you arrive at your notion of ever changing American culture? Not fucking food preferences or attitudes towards nudity, but the culture of personal interrelations, behavior in private or business environments. You claim it is spontaneously evolving depends on who is coming to the country next...Really? Do You really believe that or you just repeating someone else's liberal 'diversity' BS?
You know why US culture is superior to many others, because it is homogenous and forced on us top down, from the owners of the means of production who are predominantly Anglo-Sakson a-holes. The so called founding fathers and their descendants...This country from its first day was set up as WASP economic project where all incoming immigrants viewed as cheap moldable material (indentured serfs). That is who dictates how we behave at home or at work and what is acceptable or not in American society. To suggest that Indians or Italians or Jews formed this normative rules of behavior is naive at best.
post #5438 of 8748
Ok then
post #5439 of 8748
Looks like the BNP has a radical socialist fringe element after all.
post #5440 of 8748
So let's ponder this...

Is there a "Scottish" culture? An "English" culture? An "Irish" culture? Most people in the US would instantly say there is. Well, the British Isles have seen more waves of immigrants than the US shores have.
post #5441 of 8748
Nobody's gonna mention the childcare thing?
post #5442 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by origenesprit View Post

Nobody's gonna mention the childcare thing?

I've not been following the Apocalypse much lately...deets?
post #5443 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I've not been following the Apocalypse much lately...deets?

Guaranteed six weeks maternal leave and some kind of child care tax credit through the EITC.
post #5444 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I've not been following the Apocalypse much lately...deets?

Trump and Ivanka outlined their childcare policy in a speech last night, which makes six week maternity leave mandatory and gives tax credits for parents. They say it won't raise taxes, but that seems unlikely. It's an unusual policy for a Repub.

Here's a link to Ivanka'a op-ed in the WSJ:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-trump-plan-will-help-working-mothers-1473803187?client=safari

Edit: Gib beat me to it. I think there's also some sort of credit for elder care as well.
post #5445 of 8748
It will never happen. Ever.
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