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Trump is #2 in GOP Field - Page 355

post #5311 of 8792




lol8[1].giffacepalm.gif
post #5312 of 8792
Stumpf for Drumpf.
post #5313 of 8792
Trump's signature speech on immigration. This is why I am voting for Trump.

Finally, a candidate who is willing to address America's immigration problems in a manner that prioritizes the interests of American citizens.

post #5314 of 8792
^ serious or trolling?
post #5315 of 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

^ serious or trolling?

Should immigration start to benefit the people here, or benefit people who live in other countries?
post #5316 of 8792
or you know it could benefit both people.... as it does now.....
post #5317 of 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

^ serious or trolling?

 

 

"Do I look like I'm trolling?"

post #5318 of 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

or you know it could benefit both people.... as it does now.....

Who, specifically, has our past and current immigration policy benefited? If you're a person that doesn't believe in borders, or believes that we should import people at such a rate that makes borders all but useless, then I'd agree it's greatly beneficial to you. If you don't believe in the values set forth in the constitution, then I'd agree it benefits you. The people we import across our southern border vote overwhelming democrat. Do you think it's a coincidence that the party who believes the constitution is an obstacle to achieving a far left progressive society favor importing as many people as possible?

Mathematically speaking, your position is that based on the millions and millions of people we've imported through a lottery, we have by pure happenstance brought in the exact individuals that have allowed us to not only hit an equilibrium, but improve everyone's standing. That's absurd and you know it.

Our culture is superior to theirs, otherwise we'd be scrambling to move there instead of them coming here. You might not believe our culture is superior, but they clearly do, otherwise they'd stay put. You cannot dilute your culture with a limitless number of people from other cultures and not expect any consequences. Successful immigration can only be done in a limited manner that allows for assimilation. We know that's not why big business and the left want more and more immigrants. They either want cheap labor or they want to speed up the process of achieving a permanent majority of people who will vote for big government.
post #5319 of 8792

Just because you believe immigration may benefit the US doesnt mean you're 'against borders' or 'don't believe in the values set forth in the constitution'.

Quote:
Do you think it's a coincidence that the party who believes the constitution is an obstacle to achieving a far left progressive society favor importing as many people as possible?

Can you show me where in the constitution it says that we should not have immigration?

Quote:

Mathematically speaking, your position is that based on the millions and millions of people we've imported through a lottery, we have by pure happenstance brought in the exact individuals that have allowed us to not only hit an equilibrium, but improve everyone's standing. That's absurd and you know it.
 

This is also not true -  there are specific visas that are given to STEM immigrants.

Quote:

Our culture is superior to theirs, otherwise we'd be scrambling to move there instead of them coming here. You might not believe our culture is superior, but they clearly do, otherwise they'd stay put. 

This is idiotic, and also not true. They are coming because our JOBs are superior. Not our culture.

post #5320 of 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

This is idiotic, and also not true. They are coming because our JOBs are superior. Not our culture.

So what conditions pre-existed such that our jobs are better? Was at least part of these pre-existing conditions not of a cultural nature? Did these superior jobs just spring into being and the US was just lucky they spontaneously generated within their borders and not south of the border?
post #5321 of 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post


So what conditions pre-existed such that our jobs are better? Was at least part of these pre-existing conditions not of a cultural nature? Did these superior jobs just spring into being and the US was just lucky they spontaneously generated within their borders and not south of the border?

You think culture= jobs/pay? I think italians have a great culture, but wouldn't go there for jobs.

 

I think your question is a very complex one and couldnt be answered in an easy way, and surely the answer is not simply 'culture', but would need a complex analysis of history+local/federal laws+luck+many other factors.

 

It is also facetious to say america have one single culture. (I wouldn't say that SF and NY have the same culture, and yet both places have extremely successful and well paying jobs)

post #5322 of 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

You think culture= jobs/pay? I think italians have a great culture, but wouldn't go there for jobs.

You picked a great example to illustrate my point. The employment situation in Italy has much to do with Italian culture, no? From the power of the mafia to acceptance of tax evasion...these are culturally acceptable practices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

I think your question is a very complex one and couldnt be answered in an easy way, and surely the answer is not simply 'jobs', but would need a complex analysis of history+local/federal laws+luck+many other factors.

It is also facetious to say america have one single culture. (I wouldn't say that SF and NY have the same culture, and yet both places have extremely successful and well paying jobs)

All this is true and a far better statement that your original which indicated a complete rejection of any thought that the culture of the US is superior to that of Hispanic nations from which so many illegals in the US originate from. It could also be that some cultures are "better" at the US in terms of living a simpler life, etc., but for economic activity the US is clearly superior and this activity resides within the macro US culture.

Yes, the US does not have one single culture (I never said it did but dealt with it in the same manner you and suited were), but then that leads to other conversations such as which sub-culture(s) is/are the ones we should strive to change and which to emulate and promulgate? Questions like that will often lead to the same knee jerk reactions, i.e. no cultural group in the US is better than another! I think that is untrue if we apply any rational metrics. Now, the goal posts can then be moved to asked why these sub-cultures exist, etc. but that's tacitly admitting what was previously denied but is a far superior and more productive conversation IMO.
post #5323 of 8792
I'm going to regret this tomorrow morning
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

Who, specifically, has our past and current immigration policy benefited? If you're a person that doesn't believe in borders, or believes that we should import people at such a rate that makes borders all but useless, then I'd agree it's greatly beneficial to you. If you don't believe in the values set forth in the constitution, then I'd agree it benefits you.

what values? you mean like the 14th amendment that allows anybody simply born on American soil to obtain US citizenship? you mean the constitution of a country that was built by immigrants from all nations coming together? 9 out of the 55 1787 delegates weren't even born in the US.
Quote:
The people we import across our southern border vote overwhelming democrat. Do you think it's a coincidence that the party who believes the constitution is an obstacle to achieving a far left progressive society favor importing as many people as possible?

this is such a dumb chicken and egg, catch 44 type reasoning. unless you completely ban all immigrants the new us citizens are going to continue to vote for the party that doesn't hate them. plus this is such a scare mongering tactic. oh noes the immigrants are coming to vote for the other party and ruin our country the way it is (which has been the argument for every wave of immigration. every few decades like clockwork)

there's less than a million new naturalized us citizens every year, (3.6 million from 2010 to 2016, 10 since 2000). oh yeah there's a huge voting block. most immigrants dont even naturalize (like a two/thirds of the immigrant population dont ) and dont have voting rights. the ones that do naturalize tend to vote less than "native americans" (like one fourth less).

considering only like 60% of the 300 million us citizens in the us vote yes it definitely makes sense for one party to try and double the "import rates" and go from 500,000 to 1 million new liberal voters every year despite fierce opposition from the right. that extra 500,000 spread throughout the us is definitely going to move all those swing states.
Quote:
Mathematically speaking, your position is that based on the millions and millions of people we've imported through a lottery, we have by pure happenstance brought in the exact individuals that have allowed us to not only hit an equilibrium, but improve everyone's standing. That's absurd and you know it.

what? this went over my head. i dont understand why you think immigration is simply chance. i'm assuming you're talking about legal immigration here. i dont actually even know which lottery you're talking about because there's different lotteries for different visas and green cards. they all have extensive screening processes that differentiates between what part of the world you're from
Quote:
Our culture is superior to theirs, otherwise we'd be scrambling to move there instead of them coming here. You might not believe our culture is superior, but they clearly do, otherwise they'd stay put. You cannot dilute your culture with a limitless number of people from other cultures and not expect any consequences. Successful immigration can only be done in a limited manner that allows for assimilation. We know that's not why big business and the left want more and more immigrants. They either want cheap labor or they want to speed up the process of achieving a permanent majority of people who will vote for big government.

we don't have a one monolithic culture. our culture is a mixture of various cultures. our population isnt homogenous or indigenous. there's no american food that is indigenous to america because american culture is not indigenous to america because americans are not indigenous to america. the only thing superior about "american culture" is its relatively greater willingness to accept other cultures. nothing you eat on a daily basis is native to america. some immigrants brought it over from their country. natives adopted it and changed it and elaborated on it and made new things out of it.

i dont know why you think it's just big business. all businesses want labor (skilled or not) at cheap prices because it makes their business profitable which makes the economy profitable. have you ever walked in the kitchen of your favorite restaurant? have you ever looked at who's behind the counter at your local mom and pop store? are they also a part of big business?

do you even understand the history of immigrants in america? everybody in the us trace most of their ancestry to people not from america. every wave of immigration has had backlash and hate from the earlier immigrants. "americans" (ie the ones who came earlier) hated the irish, the germans, the italians, mexicans, eastern europeans (particularly the jews), catholics, chinese/asians, now we're in a hate latinos and muslim phase. considering how there was an entire political party dedicated to hating on catholics and yet a hundred years later we got a catholic president, i think if we wait another hundred years we'll probably have a muslim president. every single time the argument for hate was that the new immigrant population doesnt assimilate into existing culture, is taking the jobs we don't want, and makes too many babies,

we're a nation of immigrants. that's a big reason why america is great. every other developed nation (most of europe, japan) has relatively huge issues with natural birth rates and an aging population. the us doesn't as much and it's not because the native population is pumping out babies
Edited by indesertum - 9/1/16 at 7:51am
post #5324 of 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post


we're a nation of immigrants. that's a big reason why america is great. every other developed nation (most of europe, japan) has relatively huge issues with natural birth rates and an aging population. the us doesn't as much and it's not because the native population is pumping out babies

Agree with your overall point, but as Vini just pointed out, the "native population" is actually a conglomeration of various populations, and some of those segments are indeed pumping babies out like a production line. Other segments, like the ones you and I belong to, not so much. I will leave it to more progressive thinkers than myself, like Buda, to decide whether this may or may not be problematic on a number of levels.
post #5325 of 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Agree with your overall point, but as Vini just pointed out, the "native population" is actually a conglomeration of various populations, and some of those segments are indeed pumping babies out like a production line. Other segments, like the ones you and I belong to, not so much. I will leave it to more progressive thinkers than myself, like Buda, to decide whether this may or may not be problematic on a number of levels.

i didn't want to bog down with even more statistics, but

birth rates among the white native population is on part with japan and europe. the sections of the populations that are pumping out extra babies to compensate for that decline are the ones that up to one or two generations ago weren't in the US and certain "non indigenous" religious populations. hispanics especially but also foreign born "whites"

my point is foreign borns are driving population growth of the US which lessens the effect of the aging native population on US society, problems that are paramount in other developed nations.
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