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Trump is #2 in GOP Field - Page 34

post #496 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post


On the immigration track, I always find it interesting how the anti-immigrant types focus on Hispanics (and Muslims, for the double whammy of paranoia) not assimilating. It's common for Asian immigrants to have no intention of assimilating, but it never gets mentioned. Perhaps because they're the "good minority." Other big factor is that there aren't large enough populations to really maintain the culture or language of the homeland past a generation, especially while being bombarded by Western values. Hard for teenagers to hold onto collectivist culture when they're raised in the West.

There's almost certainly a class component there, but that's rarely addressed.

I am not sure what your stance is on the overall impact of immigration policies on the U.S., so this isn't necessarily directed at you, but...

For those of you who think immigration concerns are nothing more than paranoia, can you please describe an immigration trend/policy you think would be harmful to a place like the U.S.?
post #497 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post


I am not sure what your stance is on the overall impact of immigration policies on the U.S., so this isn't necessarily directed at you, but...

For those of you who think immigration concerns are nothing more than paranoia, can you please describe an immigration trend/policy you think would be harmful to a place like the U.S.?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

post #498 of 8748
"I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

. . . so please proceed through the golden door so you can be identified, examined, and questioned about your intentions for coming to the U.S. To become a citizen, you must follow our laws and regulations, take a test, and take an oath. If you attempt to evade this process, you will be immediately deported.
post #499 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nil View Post

For most of American history Asians were definitely brought up in the anti-immigration discussion. Look up the Chinese Exclusion Act which banned Chinese immigration until the mid-20th century. It wasn't until the 60's that Chinese were actually allowed to immigrate in any significant numbers. I believe they were also deprived of property rights in areas up until that point also.

Sure. That makes the modern focus on the brown people all the more interesting.
post #500 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

I would expect that every group wants to hold on to their original culture's values, and there's nothing wrong with that. People find value in the culture they grew up with, and that's not wrong.

Does this apply to white Americans, too?
Quote:
Immigration is one of the forces that changes our culture.

I guess not...
post #501 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Does this apply to white Americans, too?
I guess not...

That's pretty lazy cherrypicking.

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to preserve American culture (however you'd define such a thing), but the nation's interests are probably best served by allowing some amount of immigration and the ensuing inevitable cultural changes associated with that.
post #502 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

That's pretty lazy cherrypicking.

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to preserve American culture (however you'd define such a thing), but the nation's interests are probably best served by allowing some amount of immigration and the ensuing inevitable cultural changes associated with that.
I suppose it's lazy in the sense that it was so easy, but cherrypicking--what does that even mean?

I don't disagree that immigration could be a great thing for this country, but it should be of people who have something real to contribute, a real niche to fill, people who will make our country stronger, richer, and more competitive in the 21st century. And, at the risk of being called a racist, that's not mass immigration of unskilled laborers from Latin America.
post #503 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I suppose it's lazy in the sense that it was so easy, but cherrypicking--what does that even mean?
You pulled two phrases out and assigned a conclusion that had nothing to do with the context of the original statements. Other than some meta conclusion of what you think I believe about immigration (which I strongly suspect you're wrong about), how would you have drawn that conclusion from what I said there?
Quote:
I don't disagree that immigration could be a great thing for this country, but it should be of people who have something real to contribute, a real niche to fill, people who will make our country stronger, richer, and more competitive in the 21st century. And, at the risk of being called a racist, that's not mass immigration of unskilled laborers from Latin America.

To wit, do you think I disagree with that statement?

I'm opposed to an immigration policy of "keep out the brown people." I have absolutely no problem with selective immigration based on objective criteria. If that means excluding a whole bunch of unskilled brown people who would like to come, that's perfectly fine.
post #504 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

I am not sure what your stance is on the overall impact of immigration policies on the U.S., so this isn't necessarily directed at you, but...

For those of you who think immigration concerns are nothing more than paranoia, can you please describe an immigration trend/policy you think would be harmful to a place like the U.S.?

I'm not at all opposed to restricted immigration, I'd just like to see a rational policy and not one informed by xenophobia or racism. That's also a different question of how to treat immigrants (legal or illegal) that are already here.


I think it's evident that the modern US is a different place from the 1800s. We're more or less full up, we don't need unlimited immigration or especially unlimited unskilled labor. We also made a choice to have a safety net in place, so immigrants aren't just putting their lives in their own hands. They cost society money now, so that's a major consideration. Open immigration is presumably not a good thing, but I have no idea what the right number is or where they should come from.


Two related smaller scale trend that bother me:

In-sourcing foreign labor. Guest-worker programs can be good, especially for low skill work that physically needs to be done here, picking strawberries and the like. But we're building a habit of letting businesses claim that no domestic workers can be found when the reality is that they aren't available at the price the business wants to pay. So they bring over foreign workers, pay them a pittance, and they never get citizenship so they don't have the same kind of leverage that they'd have if they could join the normal labor market. It's a terrible system for American workers.

The other one is mass academic training of foreigners. We're spending a ton of government money on PhD stipends for Chinese researchers, and most of them will go back to China. We're basically training the competition, and paying them for the privilege. Aside from giving some academics a cheap labor force, I struggle to find the benefit to this system.
post #505 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

I'm opposed to an immigration policy of "keep out the brown people." I have absolutely no problem with selective immigration based on objective criteria. If that means excluding a whole bunch of unskilled brown people who would like to come, that's perfectly fine.

Why do you elevate skin tone over language, religion, or cultural affiliation? If there were a line of Clarence Thomas' and a line of Hillary Clintons, I'd open the doors for Clarence Thomas' and build a moat to keep the Hillarys out.
post #506 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

I'm not at all opposed to restricted immigration, I'd just like to see a rational policy and not one informed by xenophobia or racism.

I don't believe stopping illegal immigration at the border and deporting illegal aliens is based on xenophobia or racism. Its based on the federal code and the deal made to pass comprehensive immigration reform into law.
post #507 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post


I would expect that every group wants to hold on to their original culture's values, and there's nothing wrong with that. People find value in the culture they grew up with, and that's not wrong. I'm more interested in why the anti-immigrant discussions never bring up Asians.

If you read anything from the late 1800s, there's lots of conflict between "American" values and Eastern European and Jewish immigrants. Same kind of slurs you hear about the brown people today. Now they're all lumped in as "white," and nobody thinks twice about it.


The other interesting thought is that "American culture" isn't some fixed thing, especially compared to some of the more established nations. I think the modern American would be as culturally distinct as any immigrant if transported into even the 1950s, much less the 1880s. Immigration is one of the forces that changes our culture.


i live in a area that is highly diverse culturally and as a general rule probably more well traveled than most .The obviously xenophobic response to this post really leaves me scratching my head . I understand that conservatism stands in response to social change ,but to attempt to deny and avoid what is an entirely predictable evolutionary movement of our culture seems incomprehensible to me.Im an old white middle-class man yet I don't feel threatened in any way by the contrasting cultures i see around me,rather fascinated if the truth be told

       I see crime but that is more a product of socio-economic status than anything else .Iam far more likely to be mugged by a white drug addict than by those guys hanging out in front of Home Depot.If hispanic crime has any true source it is the insatiable American appetite for illegal

drugs. Deal with that and you've solved a huge portion of the issue right there

post #508 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

I don't believe stopping illegal immigration at the border and deporting illegal aliens is based on xenophobia or racism. Its based on the federal code and the deal made to pass comprehensive immigration reform into law.

Did someone say that it was?


"Build a wall" is a dog whistle for a lot of the xenophobes and racists. Building a wall isn't a racist policy by itself.
post #509 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

You pulled two phrases out and assigned a conclusion that had nothing to do with the context of the original statements. Other than some meta conclusion of what you think I believe about immigration (which I strongly suspect you're wrong about), how would you have drawn that conclusion from what I said there?
To wit, do you think I disagree with that statement?

I don't think you understand why I juxtaposed those two quotes. You said there was nothing wrong with people wanting to preserve their own culture and values, without ever even considering that it applies to unhypenated Americans.
post #510 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I don't think you understand why I juxtaposed those two quotes. You said there was nothing wrong with people wanting to preserve their own culture and values, without ever even considering that it applies to unhypenated Americans.

That is exactly how I interpreted your statement. I am not sure how you are reading some kind of contradiction into it, because I have exactly zero issue with whites similarly valuing their own culture (again, to whatever extent there is a "white" culture given the huge variations). I only have an issue with it as a primary basis for national policy.
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