or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › General › Current Events, Power and Money › Trump is #2 in GOP Field
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Trump is #2 in GOP Field - Page 325

post #4861 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post


Explain to me why you think any libertarian should support Gary Johnson when he favors mandatory GMO labeling, favors anti-discrimination laws (and said in a debate Jews should be forced to bake Nazi cakes), and his running mate  has consistently supported more gun control laws.  Heck just look at their town hall, where they said government needs to get more involved in educating and finding jobs for people to solve the BLM problem.

Wait, what? Link please?

Regarding GMO labeling, the reason this is a bad idea has little to do with guberment interference. When you start labeling things "GMO" it will create a perception in the public that it's something that needs to be labeled because it's bad/unhealthy. The whole reason the organic industry wants this to happen is because it would be a huge marketing boom for them and the products they sell.
post #4862 of 8748
GMO labeling is stupid (not inherently, more knowledge is usually good, but people automatically assume GMOs are bad, which isn't true - GMOs have saved millions of lives due to crops now being able to survive better in droughts/ produce more yield, etc)
post #4863 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

Regarding GMO labeling, the reason this is a bad idea has little to do with guberment interference. When you start labeling things "GMO" it will create a perception in the public that it's something that needs to be labeled because it's bad/unhealthy. The whole reason the organic industry wants this to happen is because it would be a huge marketing boom for them and the products they sell.

Everything that in the food, should be on the packaging, as consumer it is your right to know what you eat. Not a hard concept to grasp. Let the people decide for themselves you know. If you want to buy GMO food, you will have easier time finding it too, so it's win-win.
post #4864 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

GMO labeling is stupid (not inherently, more knowledge is usually good, but people automatically assume GMOs are bad, which isn't true - GMOs have saved millions of lives due to crops now being able to survive better in droughts/ produce more yield, etc)

i assume it's also a misleading label
post #4865 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

GMO labeling is stupid (not inherently, more knowledge is usually good, but people automatically assume GMOs are bad, which isn't true - GMOs have saved millions of lives due to crops now being able to survive better in droughts/ produce more yield, etc)

And you have an epidemiological data that GMOs are fine for non-dying of hunger human population?

GMO is slippery slope as bees don't care if it is or isn't they pollinate everything and soon : Everything is GMO and nothing is natural anymore.
post #4866 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

Everything that in the food, should be on the packaging, as consumer it is your right to know what you eat. Not a hard concept to grasp. Let the people decide for themselves you know. If you want to buy GMO food, you will have easier time finding it too, so it's win-win.

It's not useful information. Mankind has been messing with our food's DNA since we figured out agriculture. Anytime you selectively breed any plant or animal you are changing it's genome. Most of the general public is ignorant of GMO and automatically defaults to "Frankenfood Bad!" anytime they see or hear the term. Labeling over 70% of the food on the market in the USA as being GMO would do nothing but create fear in the public about the same safe foods they have been eating their whole lives.
post #4867 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

It's not useful information. Mankind has been messing with our food's DNA since we figured out agriculture. Anytime you selectively breed any plant or animal you are changing it's genome. Most of the general public is ignorant of GMO and automatically defaults to "Frankenfood Bad!" anytime they see or hear the term. Labeling over 70% of the food on the market in the USA as being GMO would do nothing but create fear in the public about the same safe foods they have been eating their whole lives.

This is 100% incorrect. Selectionism does nothing to genome.
post #4868 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

This is 100% incorrect.

Well you certainly proved me wrong.
post #4869 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post


Wait, what? Link please?

Regarding GMO labeling, the reason this is a bad idea has little to do with guberment interference. When you start labeling things "GMO" it will create a perception in the public that it's something that needs to be labeled because it's bad/unhealthy. The whole reason the organic industry wants this to happen is because it would be a huge marketing boom for them and the products they sell.

 

About 40 seconds in if you want to skip ahead.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

GMO labeling is stupid (not inherently, more knowledge is usually good, but people automatically assume GMOs are bad, which isn't true - GMOs have saved millions of lives due to crops now being able to survive better in droughts/ produce more yield, etc)

 

I agree with you both 100%.  I hate the organic trend and the "buy local" trend.  It increases the cost of non-organic food because farmers switch to it get higher profits reducing the supply of non-organic food and decreasing the overall food supply because the yields are lower.

 

80% of Americans want a warning label that the food contains DNA.  1/3 of Americans believe non-GMO food doesn't have genes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/05/27/new-study-confirms-that-80-percent-of-americans-support-mandatory-labeling-of-foods-containing-dna/

 

No surprise the Trump supporters in this thread favor GMO labeling...

post #4870 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post
 

Uhh what? Since when are all abortions Hillary's fault?

 

 

Hillary fooled everyone with that Yale J.D.  She's actually a roving M.D., performing surprise abortions hither and thither

post #4871 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

Everything that in the food, should be on the packaging, as consumer it is your right to know what you eat. Not a hard concept to grasp. Let the people decide for themselves you know. If you want to buy GMO food, you will have easier time finding it too, so it's win-win.

But a GMO is not "in the food" it is the food. Also, no label I've ever seen contains verbage like, "Will contain insect particles" and probably 50% of all packaged food does.
post #4872 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

agree with you both 100%.  I hate the organic trend and the "buy local" trend.  It increases the cost of non-organic food because farmers switch to it get higher profits reducing the supply of non-organic food and decreasing the overall food supply because the yields are lower.

80% of Americans want a warning label that the food contains DNA.  1/3 of Americans believe non-GMO food doesn't have genes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/05/27/new-study-confirms-that-80-percent-of-americans-support-mandatory-labeling-of-foods-containing-dna/

No surprise the Trump supporters in this thread favor GMO labeling...
It is irrelevant what you hate. Thank god.
WTF is this argument about food cost or yield, why the fuck do you pretend to care about yields of individual crops? This is hilarious.foo.gif
post #4873 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post


It is irrelevant what you hate. Thank god.
WTF is this argument about food cost or yield, why the fuck do you pretend to care about yields of individual crops? This is hilarious.foo.gif


Perhaps because my food prices go up when supply decrease?  Or do you not understand Econ 101?

post #4874 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

It's not useful information. Mankind has been messing with our food's DNA since we figured out agriculture. Anytime you selectively breed any plant or animal you are changing it's genome. Most of the general public is ignorant of GMO and automatically defaults to "Frankenfood Bad!" anytime they see or hear the term. Labeling over 70% of the food on the market in the USA as being GMO would do nothing but create fear in the public about the same safe foods they have been eating their whole lives.

This is obviously false, in genetic modification genes may be from an animal of the same species or a different animal/plant. Selective breeding =/= genetic modification. Go read up on it.

I am aware of the fact that there is not compelling evidence for harmful effect on humans, but ultimately if so many people prefer to avoid them for some time just in case, it's their choice to do so. EU has mandatory GMO labelling and there isn't any widespread panic.
post #4875 of 8748
Steven Novella, one of my favorite science bloggers and podcasters wrote a good piece on GMO labeling and why it's a bad idea.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/should-there-be-mandatory-gmo-labeling/
Quote:

Should There Be Mandatory GMO Labeling?

Campbell Soup has just announced that they are switching sides in the GMO labeling debate – they are now in favor of federal mandatory labeling for all products that contain genetically modified organisms. This has perhaps opened up a new chapter in the debate.

In response Mark Lynas, a journalist who, after researching the topic, is staunchly pro-GMO, has responded with an interesting essay agreeing with this move by Campbell.

Let me state up front that I think the answer to mandatory labeling is no, but let me also walk you through my thinking on this complex issue.

The Scientific Case

I will start with the easier question – is there scientific justification for mandatory labeling of GMOs? The answer here is clearly no.

What we have, through the FDA and USDA, is a regulatory system that reasonably assures the public that GMO foods are safe and nutritionally equivalent. In terms of food safety and quality, labeling is therefore redundant.

There is also no particular reason to fear that products of genetic engineering have specific risks, or that they are more likely to have unintended risks than many other methods of producing new cultivars. Why label GMOs and not hybrid crops, or those that result from mutation farming or the use of technology to force species to breed that cannot mix on their own?

The very notion of GMOs is a false dichotomy. Opponents then argue that transgenic GMOs, using genes from distant species that could not mix in nature, is different than the other methods. This is factually wrong and logically dubious.

First, horizontal gene transfer allows for genes from other kingdoms to mix into plants and even animals. In fact it was recently discovered that most sweet potatoes today have a gene derived from a soil bacteria, incorporated naturally thousands of years ago.

More importantly, who cares? The source of a gene is irrelevant, only its effect in the organism matters. Putting a fish gene in a tomato does not give you a fishmato, as anti-GMO propaganda suggests (and actually has convinced many naive people that such tomatoes would be fishy). Fish and tomatoes already share about 60% of their genes.

The case against the safety or equivalence of GMO products has utterly collapsed, and so some in the anti-GMO camp resort to other arguments. For example, many people will bring up patent law or the effect of current GMOs on agricultural practices. They don’t want to support GMOs because they don’t want to support those practices.

These arguments are also the product of successful anti-GMO propaganda. Mostly, they are tangential to the GMO issue. If you have a problem with patents, you should know that seeds that are the products of hybrid and mutation technologies are also patented. If that is your issue, then you should be in favor of labeling all food derived from patented seeds.

Issues of farming practice are complex, but let me just say here that using GMOs is not a decisive factor. GMO technology may help, may hurt, or be completely neutral to farming practice depending upon the specific organism. Why should Arctic Apples be labeled because you don’t like that corn is grown largely as a monocrop? It misses the point entirely.

The bottom line is that there is no scientific or rational reason to label GMOs.

The Political and Practical Case

The scientific question aside, there are political and practical issues with labeling that make the issue more complex. These issue essentially boil down to one of strategy.

The anti-GMO crowd has brilliantly used the labeling issue to fantastic propaganda benefit. Of that there is no question. It puts those who are pro-science on the GMO issue in a no-win situation.

The anti-GMO crowd has used the labeling question to frame the issues of GMOs as one of public choice. If you are anti-labeling then you are anti-choice. Companies who are anti-labeling are trying to hide something nefarious from the public.

Mark Lynas, who in his essay is pro-Federal GMO labeling, thinks that the only way to take this propaganda victory from the anti-GMO activists is to just give in to federal mandatory labeling. He argues that reassuring people with the science is not going to work.

From the perspective of a company like Campbell the political calculus also seems clear. First, they would much rather have one Federal labeling law than a patchwork of state labeling laws. The latter would be the worst-case scenario for any food company, and I can understand why they would want to avoid this.

Second, companies are concerned (rightly) about their brand reputation. Campbell is essentially concluding that the anti-GMO activists have won on this issue, and their only choice as a company is to go with it. If they oppose GMO labeling, then they can be portrayed as hiding something and being against consumer choice.

Campbell is also openly pro-GMO, and they state so in their press release. In essence they have decided to be “out and proud” as users of GMO technology.

Mark Lynas and Campbell seem to agree on this strategy – get rid of the choice issue, be out and proud, and then just educate consumers about the safety and benefits of GMOs. The sky won’t fall, consumers will be reassured that nothing is being hidden from them, and then comfort level with GMOs will rise.

Mark also argues that once we have a federal mandate to label all GMOs, this will flip the narrative on the anti-GMO crowd. Now, if they try to go beyond labeling to banning, they are the ones who are anti-choice. Mark feels that politically they won’t be able to push for banning once labels are mandatory.

I am not convinced.

I think all of Mark’s points have some validity and are strategically interesting. However, it does come down ultimately to predicting the future – how will the complex organism of society respond?
I think it is naive to believe that the anti-GMO crowd will not push for banning once they have labeling. They have successfully demonized GMOs and the companies who produce them, largely through misinformation, distortion, cherry picking, and outright lying. Now they want to capitalize on that groundwork by labeling GMOs.

If they win on that front, they will increase, if anything, their demonization of GMOs. They will push for banning, county by county, state by state, and also push for federal laws to make producing or using GMOs all but impossible.

That is partly what the labeling issue is about also. Make it such a burden that companies will choose to go GMO free for the practical and propaganda benefits (even in the absence of any scientific reason).

Look at the organic label in the US. The USDA resisted an official organic label for years, based on scientific grounds. There is no evidence that organic produce is safer, healthier, or more nutritious, and so labeling will confer no benefit to the consumer.

They eventually relented to the argument that they could have a limited organic label, and explain to the public that the label is not a claim for any superiority, it only has to do with the method or production not the final product, and only serves the purpose of standardizing the use of the term “organic.” Their efforts were utterly futile.

After the USDA organic label came into effect, the organic industry exploded, based on the false impression that organic produce is superior, and supported largely by the legitimacy that the USDA label conferred. All of the USDA caveats were promptly forgotten, if they were ever even noticed.

I fear the same will be true for a GMO label. All of the government and scientific caveats about why food with GMOs are being labeled will be forgotten, and anti-GMO ideologues will use the mandatory labeling to argue that GMOs are not safe.

I guarantee you that there will be those who will argue that the government relented on mandatory labeling because they know that GMOs are not safe. They did so to cover their own behinds, without admitting any prior malfeasance. That will become the narrative. “If GMOs are safe, then why are they labeled,” will be the argument.

In the end, as Mark acknowledges, it comes down to public education. So why not educate them about why labeling is pointless, and even counterproductive.

Conclusion

Mandatory GMO labeling is actually misinforming the public. It perpetuates a false dichotomy, a misunderstanding of agriculture, and conflates different crops that have nothing to do with each other. The public will falsely believe that “GMO” means “evil pesticides,” even when they mean, “vitamin A added,” or something similar.

Mark is also missing a third option – voluntary labeling. Campbell is already labeling their products that contain GMOs. Companies can do this on their own, and test the market response.

What we really need is a federal law that preempts state laws that would create a ridiculous burden on companies. Mark seems to agree, but argues that politically this will not happen, so we might as well cave.

I say we fight the good fight. We need to change the political climate. I think it is actually happening to some degree. The vacuousness and deception of the anti-GMO propaganda machine is starting to get exposed. Let’s see how that plays out before we repeat the mistake of the USDA organic label.

You can find several other good pieces on the issue by searching the blog for GMO if you are interested.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Current Events, Power and Money
Styleforum › Forums › General › Current Events, Power and Money › Trump is #2 in GOP Field