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Trump is #2 in GOP Field - Page 317

post #4741 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

M
And yes of course it is easy to filter out people who's ideologically dangerous. Just look at their skin color and have them all step on the Koran. That would keep the baddies out. Or you could boil the whole ocean and keep all the brown people out. Either way it's not like several of the past terrorists are homegrown and not brown

Lol, are you making a racist argument ?
Or are you saying there is no way for NSA/CIA to know who & where from are the people applying for US Visa?
You mean to tell me that what Israelis have been doing for their security for the past 30 years cannot be replicated in US? And while we at it the wall that Israel built with Gaza and Hungary built with Serbia don't stop people from coming illegally into their countries?

Even if I followed your logic: "No! We cannot make any intelligent guess who the people are", wouldn't that be another argument for stopping all immigration from the ME until we can figure out how to sort "brown" people with names Jihad, Muhammad or Fatima?
Edited by Medwed - 8/4/16 at 5:38am
post #4742 of 8748
how many of our "terrorist" attacks were from non us citizens? how many of those were from illegal immigrants or refugees?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

is what israel doing particularly effective? was the wall effective? and our proposed wall is going to basically the same thing as israel's right?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

do you know what the process is to become a refugee or apply to immigrate here from the ME?
post #4743 of 8748
The wall stops people from entering the country, if you argue with that you are living in la-la land. Stop visiting anti-semitic websites and quoting from them. That apartheid wall tag is telling.
Second, I would love to strip citizenship and airdrop all terrorists families in the middle of nowhere, but that would be unconstitutional. So since, we've already established that we have enough of our own jihadists, terrorists and mentally ill , why don't we try to stop more of them from coming to US. Argument that we have a lot of criminals in US therefore we should let in more or do nothing to stop them is crazy.

I do know, what the process is: It is what current administration wants to do. They either require burden of proof for refuge to be sky high or nothing at all. Depends on who is in the office and who US is trying to hurt. Then there is family reunification where they basically cannot deny entry unless you are on Most Wanted list or have AIDS. All of these categories should be temporarily suspended from application process for the next 400 years.

BTW, US already suspended Visa free travel with EU. You cannot buy a ticket and fly to NYC anymore. You have to go through application process not unlike Visa application , so they can check you through their database.-good first step.
Edited by Medwed - 8/4/16 at 6:30am
post #4744 of 8748
post #4745 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

The US has had countless more "terrorist attacks" from home grown 100% red blooded Americans than from immigrants or 1st gen Americans. There have been so few terrorist acts perpetrated by immigrants or their US born progeny that you can almost count the total with your fingers. We have a lot more to fear from within than from without

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

Ummm no. If you don't count 9/11 the number of people killed in the US from acts of terror committed by Muslim immigrants or US born children of Muslim immigrants is surprisingly low

If you don't count that time Muslims killed 3,000 people, the number is surprisingly low!

Your position is so naive it's incomprehensible.
post #4746 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

Well they make up the volume with effectivness in last twenty years jihadists killed more than 95% of people who died in acts of terror, even if you count out 9/11 it's easily 50%. That's impressive for demo that is less than 1%. To be clear im not blaming all muslims for it, but certainly that's one of the problems with muslim minorities in the west these days.

Ummm no. If you don't count 9/11 the number of people killed in the US from acts of terror committed by Muslim immigrants or US born children of Muslim immigrants is surprisingly low

Sure about that bro?
In my estimate it's about 65% (121 out 186)

Islam - 121
17 - Beltway Snipers 2001
2 - LA airport shooting 2002
1 - Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle 2006
1 - Little Rock, attack on servicemen 2009
13 - Forthood attack 2009
3 - Marathon bombings 2013
2 - Manhunt for marathon bombers 2013
1 - Skyway 2013
2 - Seattle 2013
1 - East Orange, New Jersey 2014
1 - Oklahoma City 2014
1 - New York City 2014
2 - Garland, Texas 2015
6 - Chattanooga, Tennessee 2015
1 - Merced, California 2015
16 - San Bernardino, California 2016
1 - Columbus, Ohio 2016
50 - Orlando, Florida 2016

..and domestic

'Rightwing' - 26
2 - Knoxville shooting 2008
1 -Assassination of George Tiller 2009
1 -shooting attack at the Holocaust Museum 2009
7 - Sikh Temple shooting 2012
3 - Overland Park 2013
9 - Charleston, South Carolina 2015
3 - Colorado Springs 2015

Anti-gov and other wierdos - 23
5 - Antrax letters 2001
2 - Austin Kamikaze 2009
1 - Pentagon shooting 2010
7 - Tucson 2011
2 - Louisiana Cop Killings 2012
5 - Las Vegas, Nevada 2014
1 - Blooming Grove, Pennsylvania 2014

'Leftwing' - 16
2 - Shooting of prolifers in Owosso 2009
3 - Cop killing New York City 2014
1 - Bristol, Tennessee 2016
6 - Dallas cop killing 2016
4 - Baton Rouge cop killing 2016

Might be missing something, so anybody can feel free to chime in

edit; fixed some spelling errors
Edited by wojt - 8/4/16 at 7:26am
post #4747 of 8748
you've selected an arbitrary cutoff date. It's possible to select a different arbitrary cutoff date and get different results. It's also possible to reconsider the definition of "terrorism" and get different results.

The point is that this is a useless debate of one-upmanship, doesn't address the core issues, and polutes this thread with more posts from suited/medwed than necessary (another arbitrary metric).
post #4748 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

Well he said number of attacks, not deaths. Also, you've selected an arbitrary cutoff date. It's possible to select a different arbitrary cutoff date and get different results.

The cut-off date is 11.09.2001, going past that date would indeed produce diffrent results, not sure if you'd like them more though. Anyway what's your point here? Because i don't understand your contrarianism :P There's undeniable link between terrorism and islam, what actions it requires and policies against it that's whole other topic we can disagree on. What I did was just to show numbers that is all.
post #4749 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

The wall stops people from entering the country, if you argue with that you are living in la-la land. Stop visiting anti-semitic websites and quoting from them. That apartheid wall tag is telling.
Second, I would love to strip citizenship and airdrop all terrorists families in the middle of nowhere, but that would be unconstitutional. So since, we've already established that we have enough of our own jihadists, terrorists and mentally ill , why don't we try to stop more of them from coming to US. Argument that we have a lot of criminals in US therefore we should let in more or do nothing to stop them is crazy.

I do know, what the process is: It is what current administration wants to do. They either require burden of proof for refuge to be sky high or nothing at all. Depends on who is in the office and who US is trying to hurt. Then there is family reunification where they basically cannot deny entry unless you are on Most Wanted list or have AIDS. All of these categories should be temporarily suspended from application process for the next 400 years.

BTW, US already suspended Visa free travel with EU. You cannot buy a ticket and fly to NYC anymore. You have to go through application process not unlike Visa application , so they can check you through their database.-good first step.

the first picture is from the israeli government statistics. to balance that the second picture is from a british israeli-palestine policy wonk who has tendencies to favor the palestinians. the quote is from a semite, pro wall group called A Fence for Life. They're israelites that fight and fought for a wall and even they admit it's not effective. If Palestinians actually wanted to commit more suicide bombs they could easily do so considering thousands illegally enter and exit every day despite the wall...

how would you even know the families are terrorists without them having committed acts of terror? how do you know which ones coming are jihadists terrorists or mentally ill? if they were really determined they could send in terrorists with UK passports. or are you suggesting we stop granting all visas just based on country of origin? you realize the vetting process especially from the middle east (much less any refugee seeking asylum) takes years, multiple rounds of interviews, extensive background checks, and loads of documentation that most people in war torn countries dont have the luxury to obtain?


i recognize this discussion is a tad pointless because neither of us are going to change our minds. i have been curious about the people who support trump because i have almost zero people around me that do
post #4750 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

Ummm no. If you don't count 9/11 the number of people killed in the US from acts of terror committed by Muslim immigrants or US born children of Muslim immigrants is surprisingly low


Can you provide numbers for terrorism in the last 20 years? Group 1 = immigrants and their US born children and Group 2 = people here two or more generations.
post #4751 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

the first picture is from the israeli government statistics. to balance that the second picture is from a british israeli-palestine policy wonk who has tendencies to favor the palestinians. the quote is from a semite, pro wall group called A Fence for Life. They're israelites that fight and fought for a wall and even they admit it's not effective. If Palestinians actually wanted to commit more suicide bombs they could easily do so considering thousands illegally enter and exit every day despite the wall...

So the huge reduction in suicide bombings since Gaza closure is a result of Palestinians goodwill or apathy and not the direct result of Israeli policy of denying them entry? Are you serious?

The discussion is not pointless, but you should not cherry pick from quotes what you like and omit the rest of the quote. Here is full quote:

“These gaps allow infiltrators, drugs and weapons to pour in, as well as murderers,” says Arieli. “Yet they are not sealed off only because the government wants to annex large chunks of land and it knows the court would not allow it – so it forfeits our security.” “There’s no problem crossing the gaps in the fence and tens of thousands of illegal workers cross it back and forth every day, and there should be no problem getting suicide bombers through with them” stresses Ilan Tsi’on, co-founder of “A Fence for Life.” “So why don’t they? Because that’s the Palestinians’ choice. They know that if the fence is complete they will be faced with more facts on the ground, and will take away their option of influencing us. So in fact, our security is really an illusion.”

P.S. Arguing against the wall with Mexico has its merits, there are much cheaper and quicker ways to get rid of black labor market. Arguing that denying entry to certain groups of immigrants would not increase our security is very questionable.
post #4752 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

i have been curious about the people who support trump because i have almost zero people around me that do

This is pretty much what interests me as well. none of the conservatives I know are happy about this and one was even a Ben Carson supporter so you'd think he would be ok with an insane candidate.
post #4753 of 8748
The biggest Trump supporter I know is Hispanic, and really Hispanic, not some watered down Whisp.
post #4754 of 8748
John Allen Mohamed was murdering random people so he could kill his wife without getting caught. His religion had nothing to do with it. Not convinced the Orlando shooter was motivated by religion rather than mental issues. Also lol at keeping OKCity bombing out of of the stats.
post #4755 of 8748

Living in norcal I have not encountered a single Trump supporter. Due to the fact that I grew up in the deep south I have a fairly large Facebook connection with that part of the world so I am seeing a strong support for him there . It could just be my demo but they all seem to be fairly well off middle class christians who lives have been destroyed by the totalitarian rule of the muslim dictator(although to the outside observer they appear to be leading normal middle class lives) and a history(in my experience) of overt southern racism. This is purely anecdotal 

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