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Trump is #2 in GOP Field - Page 145

post #2161 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

- practically, we need an immigration policy that makes sense, not building a fucking wall. Ataturk's point that Latino (mostly Mexican) immigrants don't do valuable work sounds like utter bullshit to me. We all know if we eat at restaurants or buy vegetables, prices are kept low by immigrant (sometimes illegal immigrant) labor. And that "they're taking the jobs that honest hardworking Americans really covet" horseshit has been proven to be horseshit (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/06/georgias-harsh-immigration-law-costs-millions-in-unharvested-crops/240774/).

If cheap vegetables are more important than preserving the cultural identity of the nation through sensible immigration laws, we're fucked.
post #2162 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

Are these "artificial conditions" created by an enforced minimum wage that results in employers seeking cheaper, illegal labor ? In that case, I would argue the government is not at fault but profiteering is the main driving factor (i.e. you can't argue that somebody is forced to break the law). If that's not the case, can you be more explicit in defining the artificial conditions and how they may come about?

I suppose I could, but time is a factor. Yes, that's basically it--that we have 40% of the population that's not working, that could be if the government didn't make employing people [legally] so expensive, didn't disincentivize work through welfare programs, etc.

There may be jobs, like seasonal farm work, where it would actually make sense to bring in foreign labor. But there's no reason those people have to live here the rest of the year. And as to the farm work bit, that's a minuscule percentage of the immigrants.

The big point, though, is that the descendants of all these illegal immigrants are not doing well. They're settling into an underclass like their parents were in in the countries they came from. You can blame genetics, you can blame racism, colonialism, whatever; it doesn't matter why. The fact is that it's happening and it's bad for the country.
post #2163 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

If cheap vegetables are more important than preserving the cultural identity of the nation through sensible immigration laws, we're fucked.

America's cultural identity has always been in flux, largely because of immigration (whether uninvited arrival and encroachment or enforced shipment of slaves or legal/quasi-legal/illegal immigration). The entire appeal to preserve something as it if it has been or is relatively pure is disingenuous.
Edited by erictheobscure - 4/9/16 at 8:07am
post #2164 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLMountainMan View Post

As someone who has spent almost his entire career in the administration of public assistance, I suspect we are of the same mindset. There are almost 100 federal programs for low-income Americans, all requiring hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats like me to administer. And administer rather poorly. Give every American above the age of 18 $15,000 a year, get rid of all other federal low-income assistance, and let the states do whatever else they want to. You would save billions, if not trillions.

That is certainly part of it and I think you summed it up well. Another part is I feel treating...what are we in now? Fourth? Fifth generation welfare families? Generations of treating people like children yields us adult-childs. Problems with impulse control, deferred gratification, long range life planning, tying consequences to actions, etc. All those things adult learn or fail. Hand folks the money, let them make adult decisions, and maybe we can undo some of the damage over 50 years of treating adults like children has done. We'll probably need to work through a period of transition (as Munch said there will no doubt be people that blow all their money on drugs, lottery tickets, etc.) but hopefully the end process will be better citizens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

And that "they're taking the jobs that honest hardworking Americans really covet" horseshit has been proven to be horseshit (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/06/georgias-harsh-immigration-law-costs-millions-in-unharvested-crops/240774/).

I feel like I have one of those jobs. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

- at any rate, the simplest point obtains: the anger over immigration really honestly is the same shit we learned about in history class (or should have)--about how appealing to xenophobia works to score political points from angry mouthbreathers

In this race it is interesting to note that's happening on both sides. A large part of Bernie's appeal is nativism. He certainly doesn't couch it like Trump but it's pretty implicit in his anti-trade rhetoric those brown people are taking 'Murican jobs!
post #2165 of 8748
Hello friends.

Each cycle, I keep really hoping the Repubs will put up somebody who will keep me from voting for a Clinton. Probably, yet again, I'll just stay home. Unless it's Cruz, in which case I'll vote for whomever is opposed to him (up to and including Yoko Ono, Noam Chomsky, or the engorged hand of Hubert Humphrey). Trump kinda fascinates me, unless I think of him sitting next to the nuclear futbol.

Any chance for Kasich?
post #2166 of 8748
^ agree about the Bernie part (with the caveat that he does couch it as international labor--ie Chinamen Chinamen and not Chinese Americans) and it does unnerve me
post #2167 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post


That is certainly part of it and I think you summed it up well. Another part is I feel treating...what are we in now? Fourth? Fifth generation welfare families? Generations of treating people like children yields us adult-childs. Problems with impulse control, deferred gratification, long range life planning, tying consequences to actions, etc. All those things adult learn or fail. Hand folks the money, let them make adult decisions, and maybe we can undo some of the damage over 50 years of treating adults like children has done. We'll probably need to work through a period of transition (as Munch said there will no doubt be people that blow all their money on drugs, lottery tickets, etc.) but hopefully the end process will be better citizens.
I feel like I have one of those jobs. smile.gif
In this race it is interesting to note that's happening on both sides. A large part of Bernie's appeal is nativism. He certainly doesn't couch it like Trump but it's pretty implicit in his anti-trade rhetoric those brown people are taking 'Murican jobs!

Before he started getting more popular he was talking about it more bluntly.  Now he focuses only on fair trade, which he defines as only trading with countries that have average wages similar to ours.  Before he also talked about immigration and how things like the temporary worker programs screw over middle class white folks.

post #2168 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post

Hello friends.

Each cycle, I keep really hoping the Repubs will put up somebody who will keep me from voting for a Clinton. Probably, yet again, I'll just stay home. Unless it's Cruz, in which case I'll vote for whomever is opposed to him (up to and including Yoko Ono, Noam Chomsky, or the engorged hand of Hubert Humphrey).

Any chance for Kasich?

Meh you're a dirty furreigner by this point
post #2169 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

Meh you're a dirty furreigner by this point

I don't disagree, litotes notwithstanding.

But, seriously, not Cruz. Please not Cruz. Because then I have to get in the car and actually drive down to the precinct. What a waste of premium 93 octane.
post #2170 of 8748
At this point the only thing getting me out to vote is if my state puts legalizing pot on the ballot.


Edit: I thought we'd agreed to colourize (SWIDT x 2?) litotes for ease of identification?
post #2171 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

At this point the only thing getting me out to vote is if my state puts legalizing pot on the ballot.
Edit: I thought we'd agreed to colourize (SWIDT x 2?) litotes for ease of identification?

Oh, oops. I've been away for a while. Didn't realize there were color codes for literary forms. Thank goodness I didn't use metonymy! The suits would have my head.

Edit; in any case... as I said in my last post a year or so ago... Hilary is our next president. Alas. Though in better news because of that bet a few SFers will owe me a nice Bordeaux.
post #2172 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I suppose I could, but time is a factor. Yes, that's basically it--that we have 40% of the population that's not working, that could be if the government didn't make employing people [legally] so expensive, didn't disincentivize work through welfare programs, etc.

There may be jobs, like seasonal farm work, where it would actually make sense to bring in foreign labor. But there's no reason those people have to live here the rest of the year. And as to the farm work bit, that's a minuscule percentage of the immigrants.

The big point, though, is that the descendants of all these illegal immigrants are not doing well. They're settling into an underclass like their parents were in in the countries they came from. You can blame genetics, you can blame racism, colonialism, whatever; it doesn't matter why. The fact is that it's happening and it's bad for the country.

You could say the same about most of the poor whites, and many blacks that have descendants that have been here for hundreds of years, and still haven't amounted to dog shit. I don't know how you would be able to get them to return to all those shitty jobs they once did, and replace the browns.
post #2173 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre Secreto View Post

I don't know how you would be able to get them to return to all those shitty jobs they once did, and replace the browns.

The jobs are not shitty, they would have been decent paying jobs if government was not on the take.
The H1B would not be destroying IT and Pharma sectors if government was not on the take.
Illegals would not be pouring over the border destroying wages and sending over 100 billion out of US if fed was not looking to get rid of all that extra cash they are printing.
The list goes on....
post #2174 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

The jobs are not shitty, they would have been decent paying jobs if government was not on the take.

Picking strawberries or working landscaping is going to suck no matter how much it pays.

Especially in agriculture, it's not really tenable to pay labor at rates that would actually draw American workers in. You're competing with Third World labor rates, but the work has to be done in the US.
Quote:
Illegals would not be pouring over the border destroying wages and sending over 100 billion out of US if fed was not looking to get rid of all that extra cash they are printing.
That kind of thing makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist. You know the fed isn't actually printing out money, right? They don't need some elaborate mechanism to shuttle physical money out of the country.
post #2175 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

The jobs are not shitty, they would have been decent paying jobs if government was not on the take.
The H1B would not be destroying IT and Pharma sectors if government was not on the take.
Illegals would not be pouring over the border destroying wages and sending over 100 billion out of US if fed was not looking to get rid of all that extra cash they are printing.
The list goes on....

Right... because kitchen slaves, and construction dudes digging ditches, and setting up rebar have always made good dough, and had a blast doing it.
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