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Trump is #2 in GOP Field - Page 114

post #1696 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

^ You know what makes me smile about this? It's exactly how I expected you to react. Except that's not what I meant. If we're slinging anecdotes and impressions as if they're evidence, then other people's life stories count. They're all partial, distorted, and of limited usefulness. But you seem unable to realize that other people don't weight your personal experience above others'.


laugh.gif
post #1697 of 8748
Oh. We're at the emoji stage of conversation. How charming and productive.
post #1698 of 8748
We were there earlier; I was just coddling you for a time.
post #1699 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post


Note that my claim that Bernie & Trump support are similar only formally but not in terms of content doesn't derive from my fuzzy stories of people across America. It's a claim about fact: their positions are radically different.

To this ninja edit: yes, many of their positions are radically different, however, my statement is many of these folks hold their radically different positions but with similar motivations. You clearly do not want to contemplate many of these folks are driven by the same rather malicious self-interest and I understand that motivation also.
post #1700 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teger View Post

Mid/early 20s upper middle class white people haven't earned enough yet to afford the shit their parent have, but still want it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

^ You know what makes me smile about this? It's exactly how I expected you to react. Except that's not what I meant. If we're slinging anecdotes and impressions as if they're evidence, then other people's life stories count.

So here is a claim, by a fellow member of the academy I might add, alluding to exactly what I said as a possible motivation for a sizable group of Bernie backers.
post #1701 of 8748
Okay, I have some actual work to do, so I'll bow out with this.

The simple point: Reading about other people's impressions and experiences is interesting enough, I guess, or we wouldn't all be here. But claims built entirely on personal impressions aren't particularly convincing to me. My point above was that you (Piob) seem somehow unable to register that other people don't find your experiences and your impressions as meaningful as you do. (I.e., if we don't agree with you, it must be because we refuse to think about what you understand.) You, Teger, munchausen, whoever else chimed in--sure, we all have some intuitions and sometimes they corroborate each other and sometimes they contradict each other. I'm just inclined to think that all that means is that I find no good reason to build sweeping claims on little more than partial, fragmentary impressions.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

The not-so-simple point: I'm not suggesting that every time we want to have a conversation with claims based on our intuitions, we need to go out and collect data (e.g., Teger needs to cite polls re: the attitudes of mid/early 20s upper middle class white people in order to have a conversation about that demographic). God knows I'm not a social scientist. What I do find convincing when an intuition or a particular point of view can interpret something (some specific real thing) in a meaningful way. If I remain unconvinced by some combination of claim + intuition + analysis, then maybe it's just because I don't think any new insights have been offered, let alone any form of new evidence that I find binding.

But whatever. I have my own take on what I find convincing and not convincing.

FWIW, I read this today and found it very interesting re: Trump support.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/03/secret-donald-trump-voters-speak-out
post #1702 of 8748
TL;DNR = Piob fails to understand.
post #1703 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

My father was a tool and die guy. I have a cousin that does tool and die and a teenage friend of mine went into it. It's certainly better than working the line at an assembly plant.

Oh it's great fun. We do things daily that would get someone fired from a corporate job. Just last week we tricked one of my guys to get on a pallet and then used a forklift to lift him about 15 feet in the air and left him there.
post #1704 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLMountainMan View Post

Plumbers, pest control guys, electricians - all make good money and they can't be outsourced.

This is true, but cheap imported/illegal labor or, sometime in the near future, automated labor can undercut these types of professions.
post #1705 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

FWIW, I read this today and found it very interesting re: Trump support.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/03/secret-donald-trump-voters-speak-out

am curious what particularly interests you ? the reasons don't strike me as surprising

1) anti-PC
2) muslims eek.gif
3) destroy the status quo
4) We the American people are tired of politicians owing favors to rich businessmen [so I'm voting for one directly instead]
5) Obama failed. Down with the political establishment
6) Wall St oligarchy
7) muslims eek.gif
8) anti-PC
9) anti-political establishment
10) disenfranchised white
11) ??
12) anti-immigration
post #1706 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teger View Post

Mid/early 20s upper middle class white people haven't earned enough yet to afford the shit their parent have, but still want it.

So here is a claim, by a fellow member of the academy I might add, alluding to exactly what I said as a possible motivation for a sizable group of Bernie backers.

do you think this to be true of trump supporters too ?
post #1707 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

do you think this to be true of trump supporters too ?

Trump doesn't dominate among "Millenials" as much as Bernie does, he has overall much different demographics from Bernie. IIRC Bernie won among young people in all states so far.

But some of Bernie voters may defect for Trump if Hillary wins. Hillary is really hated by large numbers of them.
post #1708 of 8748
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

am curious what particularly interests you ? the reasons don't strike me as surprising

1) anti-PC
2) muslims eek.gif
3) destroy the status quo
4) We the American people are tired of politicians owing favors to rich businessmen [so I'm voting for one directly instead]
5) Obama failed. Down with the political establishment
6) Wall St oligarchy
7) muslims eek.gif
8) anti-PC
9) anti-political establishment
10) disenfranchised white
11) ??
12) anti-immigration

A couple of things, I guess. You're right that none of the individual impulses & positions are surprising at all. But it's the contradictions as well as the weird combinations that emerge. One that you don't note: the guy who says he's concerned about radical Muslims but that he's no supporter of Israel and that he's pro BDS. It's obviously more of an indictment of the lunacy of American politics in general that Trump is the only candidate who's lukewarm about Israel.

I'm also intrigued by how visible the pattern of "I know what I'm doing but I'm doing it anyways" (paraphrasing Zizek's Sublime Object of Ideology, which remains, in my mind, the best diagnosis of present-day irony that I know of) becomes here. Perhaps most notable in the evangelical pastor who knows Trump either isn't a Christian or is a shitty one. But these positions aren't simply tantamount to hipster irony (isn't it so cool and funny we're doing this shitty thing)--precisely because there's this spirit of hiddenness and a dirty little secret. So if you put 1) and 2) together, you get a pretty good view of how widely popular stupidity becomes a viable position out resentment and pseudo-secrecy ("I'm not supposed to be this stupid, but fuck you I'm not enlightened!").

Except, finally, for the one hipster academic bro who's supporting Trump to advance a crisis. That guy is the most understandable to me and thus the least interesting. But the very fact the's the knowing/stupid exception remains somewhat interesting to me.
post #1709 of 8748
I guess my assumption, without really speaking to any of his supporters, has been that anyone who supports him does so while acknowledging his frequent and severe self-contradictions, so there doesn't need to be any rhyme or reason or any real consistency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

("I'm not supposed to be this stupid, but you I'm not enlightened!").

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201407/anti-intellectualism-and-the-dumbing-down-america
post #1710 of 8748

While I have always  been and remain a godless atheist I have also held a fascination with apocalyptic prognostication . One of the comforts I always took was the idea that in spite of everything else these foretold events were self contradictory,lacked rhyme or reason, or any real consistency

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