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Shoe Porn: Norvegese, Bentivegna, Goyser, BIG Stitch & BIG Welts ONLY! - Page 11

post #151 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

Treccia is the same as goiser right?
No lt different.
Goiser use welt and feather,
Norvegese-treccia (in picture) not use feather or welt,
it use bonwelt (rand).
lt use treccia norvegese that stitch upper to insole (inseaming).
It also use single stitch (hard to see) on outside of bonwelt to midsole to outsole to secure it good.

lt use treccia norvegese (woven norvegese technique) on bonwelt only as decoration stitch,
so treccia on bonwelt not go into midsole or outsole.
Treccia stitch look loose on bonwelt so it proof it decoration stitch.


Important to know different between bonwelt and welt.
Treccia for inseaming (functioning)
Treccia for decoration on bonwelt
Single stitch on outside of bonwelt

lt all hard to see,
but it look like this.
Edited by Son Of Saphir - 9/21/12 at 12:47am
post #152 of 224
hold on, by "bonwelt" do you mean turned out upper?

Because that's my understanding of what norvegese stitching is all about.

is goiser stitching similar to bentivegna except that the stitches are lined up diefferently?

I can't see a picture in your post.
post #153 of 224
bonwelt = strip of leather usualy with teeth (rand)
it also on blake rapid shoe
bonwelt never attach to insole
welt always attach to insole and never have teeth
welt = on goodyear or hand welted shoe.
Shoe welt page.pdf 755k .pdf file

this link show some welt have teeth but it not true.
post #154 of 224
Ah so bonwelt is just a fake welt.

I know Norwegese has no welt. So "Treccia" just means the braided style of stitching?


Is goiser essentially the same as bentivegna except it also has a braided stitch?
post #155 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Of Saphir View Post

Does insole have dimples?

No = blake type stitching
post #156 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

Ah so bonwelt is just a fake welt.
Yes,
but bonwelt serve important function.
lt still good.
Quote:
I know Norwegese has no welt. So "Treccia" just means the braided style of stitching?
Yes
Quote:
Is goiser essentially the same as bentivegna except it also has a braided stitch?
No.
bentivegna have no feather,
goiser have feather.
norvegese = bentivegna with L welt
Norvegese and bentivegna more hard to resole
Not all bentivegna has braided stitch.
post #157 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by meister View Post

No = blake type stitching
musicboohoo[1].gif
Fake stitching. frown.gif

you got tricked lol8[1].gif

sorry about the lol8[1].gif , you know me do joke. tounge.gif
post #158 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

Ah so bonwelt is just a fake welt.
I know Norwegese has no welt.

Correct on both counts!

A bonwelt serves no other function but a decorative one.

Last upper over insole, glue bonwelt in place, glue outsole in place. You can either leave it like that as a cemented construction or you place an additional Blake stitching going through all the layers: insole, bonwelt, out-sole. Bonwelts come on continuous rolls (of 50 meters, or whatever). Frequently they have a row of stitching already in place. You can see whether the stitching was placed on the shoe or a continuous strip of leather: on the first case, there will be at least one stitch going over the point where the welt begins and ends. In the second case, you will see at the cut-point that the stitching as well is cut and butted.

Norwegian construction (or Norvegese) has an inside feather, but not the outside one. Here are some pictures:

norwbootresize2_zpsaaf3160a.jpg

Inside feather in place and pre-holed (pierced).

Through these holes the shoemaker stitches trough the upper leather, coming out at the outside.

norwbootresize19jpg_zps3d62f6ef.jpg
norwbootresize13jpg_zps645a19fc.jpg

Then the mid- and outer sole get stitched through all layers, as seen in this photograph: upper leather, midsole, outsole with the folded up channel flap.
norwbootresize20jpg_zps6374de2a.jpg

Here is the finished construction with two rows of stitching:

DSC_00024_zpsd4c20ba8.jpg

That said, shoemaking is not a science like mathematics where only one answer is correct. Most Italian makers will cut the folded-out upper narrow to create a step and a board walk going round the shoe, or they might use three rows of stitching.

lattanzi003.jpg

Italian sample (Lattanzi) with a ‘step’ and two rows of stitching.

Equally a number of Italian makers (judging by the youtube videos most of them) will not cut a feather ever, they just poke the awl through the insole.

Shoemaking is rather like cooking, the basics are the same: Boeuf Bourguignon is a beef stew, simmered in red wine and stock. But every housewife, every chef has the detail differently and so creates a different tasting dish.
post #159 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


A bonwelt serves no other function but a decorative one.
.
not always true
bonwelt can also be stitched down on to midsole and outsole (blake rapid),
it keep soles more secure and keep upper from getting damaged during resole (very very important function of bonwelt for single sole shoe).
Teethy bonwelt always best! fing02[1].gif
On many average shoe bonwelt is decoration.
On good shoe bonwelt serve different purpose.
Edited by Son Of Saphir - 9/22/12 at 5:27am
post #160 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Norwegian construction (or Norvegese) has an inside feather, but not the outside one.

Me say not true.
Norwegian and norvegese look same but technique different.
Norwegian have feather and upper join under insole.
Norvegese use no feather and upper join in side of insole.
http://img42.exs.cx/img42/9495/Lastp120section3.jpg
post #161 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Equally a number of Italian makers (judging by the youtube videos most of them) will not cut a feather ever, they just poke the awl through the insole.
.
maker me use do this.
me want feather and he say no.
post #162 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Of Saphir View Post

Me say not true.
Norwegian and norvegese look same but technique different.
Norwegian have feather and upper join under insole.
Norvegese use no feather and upper join in side of insole.

‘Norwegian’ and ‘Norvegese’ are essentially the same construction. In both cases is the upper folded to the outside (check those drawings again).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Of Saphir View Post

maker me use do this.
me want feather and he say no.

The fact that quite a few Italian shoemakers (and possibly shoemakers in other parts of the world as well) never do cut a feather is a question of training and experience. They will not cut a feather for hand-welted work either. They have never been trained in that technique, or have at some later point decided this step being unnecessary. After a number of years they will be very good at poking the awl through the insole without the depth-guide of the inside feather.

I neither read Italian, nor have I access to Italian shoemaking textbooks. so I don't know what is considered 'good practice' in traditional Italian shoemaking.

Here is another Japanese illustration, which does show the use of a feather in ‘Norvegese’ construction

Norvegese.jpg

“There are as many ways of making a shoe, as there are shoemakers” (Janne Melkersson)
post #163 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


Here is another Japanese illustration, which does show the use of a feather in ‘Norvegese’ construction
Norvegese.jpg

ah yes,
you are right.
Both norvegese and bentivegna can be done with feather moved to the edge to allow for out turn of upper,
so norwegian can also be norvegese.
Hmmm.
Interesting how some maker make norwegian and norvegese different and other maker do it same way.
Quote:
They will not cut a feather for hand-welted work either. They have never been trained in that technique, or have at some later point decided this step being unnecessary. After a number of years they will be very good at poking the awl through the insole without the depth-guide of the inside feather.
Yes.
Me have maker and me show him feather,
he never see it before.
He very good at poking awl through side of half of insole.
Me like feather better,
inseaming a new insole made more easy if inseam or insole get damage.
Edited by Son Of Saphir - 9/22/12 at 11:43am
post #164 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

Is goiser essentially the same as bentivegna except

shoe construction guide
goiser/reverse welt
- upper join to welt and cut
- L welt on out side
- always a feather

normal hand welted shoe
- upper join to welt and cut
- normal flat welt
- can use a feather on edge or inside
- not always use feather

norvegese
- out turned upper
- flat bonwelt
- can be made with feather (only on edge but never in same area as goiser/reverse welt shoe)
- can be made with no feather
(some maker do Norwegian struction same as Norvegese)

bentivegna
- out turned upper
- L welt
- can be made with feather (only on edge but never in same area as goiser/reverse welt shoe)
- can be made with no feather

Veldschoen
- Out turned upper
- Can use flat bonwelt or no bonwelt
- In turned lining so always need feather little bit inside from edge like normal hand welted or goodyear welted shoe
- Out turned outside of upper

Blake rapid
- In turned upper
- Flat bonwelt
- No feather ever

Wood peg
- upper join to welt
- Flat welt but never stitch to mid or outsole on outside - only stitched to insole and glue to mid or outsole
- Can do feather or no feather

Important
- Out turned upper always have feather on edge or use no feather
- Goiser/reverse welt shoe always need a feather to join upper (it the only construction when outside upper need a feather ).
- Veldschoen is only construction when lining is on turned and outer upper is out turned.
- Wood peg is only construction when welt is glued to midsole or out sole.


me think this right now.
me check later to check it good.
Edited by Son Of Saphir - 9/24/12 at 12:34am
post #165 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Of Saphir View Post


Wood peg

- Flat welt but never stitch to mid or outsole on outside - only stitched to insole and glue to mid or outsole

me think it done this way so the wood peg construction not get ruined,
this very easy to ruin if leather still wet and wood peg not have time to swell.
If shoe maker stitch welt to mid and outsoles after doing the wood peg it might cause it to get loose.
Me think lt also hard to keep leather wet after maker let the wood peg construction dry,
this mean stitching the outside of welt very very hard.
That why me think man not do it.
It only thing that make sense yes.
Edited by Son Of Saphir - 9/24/12 at 12:35am
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