HOF: What Are You Wearing Right Now - Part III



MrDaniels said:

I predict your wife...

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iammatt said:

You are so...

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MrDaniels said:

So nice to know...

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Normally I'd delete these posts as rude (matt even reported his own post for deletion), but since they're funny and their authors obviously put a lot of thought and emotion into crafting them, I'm leaving them. Feel free to pm me if you think this is the wrong decision, anyone.

luftvier said:

I like having more old guard back in here. Keep it up, guys.

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The funny thing his how united some of these guys are who once fought over various things. Kind of like matt and nii or matt and Mr D...

DocHolliday said:

I just figured what this thread needed was more discussion of me.

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It did and still does. But it needs pics of you more.

jj-moody said:

... First question, 'very puffed out chest'. This implies the chest is puffed out and exaggerated. Don't see it, how so? 'Too tight waist': The waist is hardly too tight, perhaps the rise on his trousers is low, but it is not so easy to tell from that picture. Too open above the button, more of a U than a V shape: Despos has a really sharp eye. I had not even noticed the altered lapels until he mentioned it. If he could weigh in I think the criticisms would be more balanced.

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I made the same points in a "thumbs up" comment on Spoo's post before seeing Manton's thoughts. The puffed out chest that causes a U shape was something I used to like. I remember even posting a compliment on it to Vox. But that was before I learned it was indicative of a flaw in fit. It seemed masculine to me, emphasizing a large chest. And while it may indicate this, now it says "small jacket" to me, since... it stems from a jacket that's too small or from a person puffing up his chest.

Quarks said:

...As for Spoo's attire being of a "very puffed out chest, too-tight waist, too open above the button and more of a "U" rather than "V" shape, overall a look of a short front balance and the impression that the coat is riding up and off the neck." I wonder what you see through your eyes, I wouldnt want to know.

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This willingness to learn is an attitude I hope we might all have.

Manton said:

... Lufty's cloths do not have any obvious fit problems and they show none of the issues of spoo's that I identify above. If you want to call all of these silhouette and not fit issues, that's fine, though the front balance issue at a minimum is definitely fit. In any case, I took care to say that I don't like spoo's cut not the fit. I have also said that I am not in love with Lufty's sack silhouette either though I do think it is superior to spoo's and looks more tasteful, elegant, restrained, etc. It also closes better in front, does not look like it's riding up or pulling at the waist. I would prefer to see more of a draped chest with a trimmer hip and a slightly reduced waist on him, a la A&S or Neapolitan drape coat because that is what I like...

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FWIW, I thought Lufty's recent checked suit, looked a lot like you wearing your Solito suits. And I thought it looked good. But then I thought Despos said it didn't... Can't remember why. D?

jj-moody said:

My 'complaints' have nothing to do with criticism per se, but, rather critiques that are vacuous. I take issue with people who make flimsy criticisms and then do not care to offer suggestions or even elaborate on the critique. I've read several meaningless critiques that have no bearing in reality, and, unfortunately, are given undue consideration by dopey eyed undereducated sycophants who nod unthinkingly...

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Don't forget that what we hate in others, we often have and hate in ourselves... I hope I've explained the puffed chest and U shaped lapel gape above

Louis XIV said:

...But what I think might make Spoo look better than Lufty, even when some of the experienced members in here think that in fact Lufty dresses better than Spoo, is that Spoo has the superior body type...:

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I'm not sure that Spoo has a better body than Lufty, but their clothes do seem to point that way. I think both have different goals given their social contexts, and both do a good job at achieving their goals. But I agree completely with your main point that fit people and people blessed w/ good bodily proportions tend to look better in clothes than others.

VictorSF said:

Today, "Retro Men":

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Ah, now this fit does many interesting things and works. Lots of texture. Distinctive jacket with a whiff of retro-irony about it, but so well thought-out that the irony is under control and doesn't dominate. It's a jacket I would love to own. A tie that picks up colours in both jacket and trousers but doesn't mimic either. Shoe and bag co-ordination. A touch of another colour on the pocket square. I like just about everything. Good stuff!

emptym, this u shape phenomenon I think is best achieved if the coat is way too small. From Spoo, I can see the makings of a V shape rather than a U shape. His coats are not too small.

Also, V shape is widely known as the most sought after silhouette in terms of masculinity. What on earth made you think that a U shape is masculine?

As for the rather philosophical comment about 'hate in ourselves', If I make a critique, you bet I would only do so after careful deliberation and with a willingness to defend my position.

I am specifically talking about the coat's opening above the button when I use the letters U and V. Look how the edges bow outward in a cuve, like parentheses. They should be straighter. That bowing makes the coat look small even if it isn't. To my eye it's a sign of a short front balance, an overly straight (as opposed to crooked) coat, or a too small coat, or some combination.

Even if it is none of these things and is by design supposed to look like that, i don't like it. I like the coat to close more naturally, the edges to be more straight, and the opening to look like a V.



niidawg3 said:

Maybe separating feedback related to personal preference from classic rules might help "un-muddy" the waters a little more.

Thoughts?

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I made the comment, its over the top as I would not be so offended by loudly colored socks that I would remark on them in real life. The reality is that most of the things analyzed here are not going to be noticed in real life. Everyone looks better in IRL as they are not posing and yuo are not sitting there staring at every little item. In terms of classic rules versus preference, its one of the enigma's of this threak. On the one hand, yes, there are "rules" but you can't just dress by the book all the times. On the other hand, everything can't just be chalked up to sprezz. Then, how do you value personal preference? I don't like Spoo's green socks because they match the tie perfectly, looks very deliberate (and reminds me of the '80's trends of matching sockwarmers/handwarmers on girls) and to me deliberate is not elegant but I'm sure Spoo can find 10 people that will tell him those socks rock in that outfit.

At the end of the day , this is all an individual journey. You can get ideas from looking at others on here, but you won't "get it" until you go through the process of trial and error. There is always going to be a pissing match here about this or that but people need to ignore the noise. For me, it's been "who do I think is a great dresser, why do I think he is a great dresser and will that look work for me and my needs". I still wear and love my Rodney Dangerfield coats but I toned them way down with everything else I wear. That works for me but that may not work for others.

I just looked at this sport coat again. I suppose I see inklings of a U, but that can be a result of the way he is standing or how his hand is sitting in his pocket. Also, Spoo has mastered a similar pose for every picture, so repeated U errors might simply be because of the way he poses. I am unsure of that, however.

If, in fact, his coat looks like that all the time then I was wrong. Even so, it is not a particularly egregious error. And also, I do not see how the coat is 'very puffy' at the chest because of this fault. The other faults that were listed like the suggestion that the waist is too tight were also suspect. Very fishy critiques, the waist doesn't seem to be too tight from the look of things, the only way he could really know is if he tried spoo's trousers and coat on himself. And if that is the case, what is manton doing trying on other member's clothes? There are serious issues with honest critique here. The haughty hyperbole often diminishes any chance of a real suggestion coming through. I've seen Manton's fits, and I certainly do not see perfection or anything close to it. If I chose the same haughty hyperbolic style of discourse, there would be all sorts of clamoring.



niidawg3 said:

First thanks for the detailed response. since socks are technically underwear and rarely seen in the context of a man's attire i have never thought it elicits the same level of attention unlike ties/ps/jackets etc. Also there are some really great sock makers who have smooth textured socks. Not disagreeing with you per se, but trying to parse the response through my head and "see your point"

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Sure thing, nii. What you say about level of attention is what I was trying to say with the part starting with "It's not a big deal though...". And I'm sure about great sock makers making smooth textured socks—I just often find them looking cheapish/default. Maybe (probably) also because of my general preference for textured fabrics.

In my humble opinion this sounds more like personal preference. Spoo chose green, someone else may have chosen brown to match the shoes, or beige to match the pants (ie following the rule of elongating the legs etc etc).

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also how is blue "almost always" right? is it almost always right because blue is a universally accepted color for men's wear, or is it right because it is a non-intrusive color (ie not a pink, orange etc)?

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I put these two comments together, because it makes it easier to answer your question. Yes, what I meant was that it would have looked less matchy-matchy, in my eyes, if it was navy, because navy is non-intrusive. A more intrusive colour makes for a more obvious "matchy-matchiness".

niidawg3 said:

In conclusion, although i see what you are saying, i feel like it is too minute to elicit a "good God" comment (and maybe it was from Ed; not you). When i initially saw the comment I had to do a double take to check out the spoiler tags, because I thought Spoo had on pink socks or something. The green IMO is mundane, complements both khaki and chocolate brown (and yes does pick off the tie ... hard pressed to call that a bad/terrible thing).

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It was Ed. I'm not religious.

niidawg3 said:

Maybe separating feedback related to personal preference from classic rules might help "un-muddy" the waters a little more.

Thoughts?

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Good point. To clarify: my comments are hardly ever about rules—most of the times I comment on what I like, sometimes with a side-note of what I feel would make something look better. And often I ask questions, because I'm curious why people make certain choices. I don't have many general tips or rules to offer; that's why I don't often do "critiques" but just throw out some comments here and there. Not in an annoying way I hope, because that's not my intention. Not in 90% of the cases anyway...

I'm here (the forum in general) to learn/get ideas, not to teach. And because I like to chat about silly stuff, like clothes...

A lot of you guys are confusing "proper fit" and "attractive cut."

^Could you explain the diff, Doc? I'm thinking the first objective and the second, subjective. But that's all I've got atm.

jj-moody said:

emptym, this u shape phenomenon I think is best achieved if the coat is way too small. From Spoo, I can see the makings of a V shape rather than a U shape. His coats are not too small.

Also, V shape is widely known as the most sought after silhouette in terms of masculinity. What on earth made you think that a U shape is masculine?

As for the rather philosophical comment about 'hate in ourselves', If I make a critique, you bet I would only do so after careful deliberation and with a willingness to defend my position.

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As I mentioned in a pm: I agree with you. Even fit to a great degree is subjective. I don't know if you saw the Tailor's Thread that I mentioned. I struggled to think of something timeless and eventually came up w/ high arm holes, since there's a good reason for that (freedom of arm movement). But I know Sator says it's not about height but shape. I needed to say it in a way most people would understand though... I think the reason Manton and iammatt don't always explain themselves fully all the time is that they've already spent years doing so. The same darned problems keep coming up because a fresh new crop of newbs arrives every day. So they get tired and then cranky. I would and do too. But that's not a great excuse. We should all try to be as positive as possible, or say nothing at all -- as our grandmothers taught us, i hope.

edmorel said:

I made the comment, its over the top as I would not be so offended by loudly colored socks that I would remark on them in real life. The reality is that most of the things analyzed here are not going to be noticed in real life. Everyone looks better in IRL as they are not posing and yuo are not sitting there staring at every little item. In terms of classic rules versus preference, its one of the enigma's of this threak. On the one hand, yes, there are "rules" but you can't just dress by the book all the times. On the other hand, everything can't just be chalked up to sprezz. Then, how do you value personal preference? I don't like Spoo's green socks because they match the tie perfectly, looks very deliberate (and reminds me of the '80's trends of matching sockwarmers/handwarmers on girls) and to me deliberate is not elegant but I'm sure Spoo can find 10 people that will tell him those socks rock in that outfit. At the end of the day , this is all an individual journey. You can get ideas from looking at others on here, but you won't "get it" until you go through the process of trial and error. There is always going to be a pissing match here about this or that but people need to ignore the noise. For me, it's been "who do I think is a great dresser, why do I think he is a great dresser and will that look work for me and my needs". I still wear and love my Rodney Dangerfield coats but I toned them way down with everything else I wear. That works for me but that may not work for others.

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Great post imo. The matching socks remind me of the show "Silver Spoons."

jj-moody said:

I just looked at this sport coat again. I suppose I see inklings of a U, but that can be a result of the way he is standing or how his hand is sitting in his pocket. Also, Spoo has mastered a similar pose for every picture, so repeated U errors might simply be because of the way he poses. I am unsure of that, however.

If, in fact, his coat looks like that all the time then I was wrong. Even so, it is not a particularly egregious error. And also, I do not see how the coat is 'very puffy' at the chest because of this fault. The other faults that were listed like the suggestion that the waist is too tight were also suspect. Very fishy critiques, the waist doesn't seem to be too tight from the look of things, the only way he could really know is if he tried spoo's trousers on himself. And if that is the case, what is manton doing trying on other member's clothes? There are serious issues with honest critique here. The haughty hyperbole often diminishes any chance of a real suggestion coming through. I've seen Manton's fits, and I certainly do not see perfection or anything close to it. If I chose the same haughty hyperbolic style of discourse, there would be all sorts of clamoring.

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I think my comment above about hating in others what we hate in ourselves applies well to your hatred of "haughty hyperbole." I don't think anyone called anything in Spoo's post a "egregious error." That would be an exaggeration, or a hyperbole. Plus, your repeated criticism of Manton's fits have been pretty vacuous to me. If you would take the time to substantiate your criticism, I think we'd all find that helpful.

Sorry about the bad photos, I'm really not sure how to take them and am too embarrassed to get someone to take them for me haha

Emptym, I have not engaged in hyperbole. I have engaged in hyperbole bashing. I've seen a few of manton's fits in passing and noted that they were passable and wholly unremarkable. Would they stand the very thorough critique he has given to Spoo? I'd say no. I can look into it later, more conscientiously, if it is required. And of course, no one said that the U problem was egregious, but it is really the only cogent critique in that list manton gave...and even if it is completely valid, it is of little consequence.



niidawg3 said:

Waning days of Winter meets Beginning Days of Fall

Details ...

Time to call it a day ...

More on the other side​

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That's a nice shoulder there. I wish you would give yourself more room in the chest so that the proportions between your head, upper body and waist were a little more pleasing. Nice fabric as well.



jj-moody said:

I just looked at this sport coat again. I suppose I see inklings of a U, but that can be a result of the way he is standing or how his hand is sitting in his pocket. Also, Spoo has mastered a similar pose for every picture, so repeated U errors might simply be because of the way he poses. I am unsure of that, however.

If, in fact, his coat looks like that all the time then I was wrong. Even so, it is not a particularly egregious error. And also, I do not see how the coat is 'very puffy' at the chest because of this fault. The other faults that were listed like the suggestion that the waist is too tight were also suspect. Very fishy critiques, the waist doesn't seem to be too tight from the look of things, the only way he could really know is if he tried spoo's trousers and coat on himself. And if that is the case, what is manton doing trying on other member's clothes? There are serious issues with honest critique here. The haughty hyperbole often diminishes any chance of a real suggestion coming through. I've seen Manton's fits, and I certainly do not see perfection or anything close to it. If I chose the same haughty hyperbolic style of discourse, there would be all sorts of clamoring.

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OK, wtf? I am just trying to state what I don't like about something. I'm being as specific as I can with no snark, where you are finding this "haughty hyperbole" is beyond me. Like I said earlier, you seem to think that all criticism is ipso facto mean. This is the same problem that foo diagnosed with this thread a long time ago and it hasn't gotten any better. Foo’s other major complaint—cinch in the waist and 99% of WAYWN will drool—also seems dead on. Everything I have seen spoo wear looks exactly as I have described to me. I haven't seen every single pic but whenever I tune in, there he is, and he always looks like that. Based on my understanding of fit, it looks off. Whether it is or isn't off, I don't like the way it looks and I don't think it's flattering. I think one place we differ is that I believe that fit and silhouette are separable whereas you conflate the two. Lufty’s clothes “fit” in the technical sense though the silhouette is not fitted. By “fit” I mean how it sits on his neck, lays on his shoulders, how the sleeves hang, and how the fronts fall and close, among other things. You seem to see “big” and conclude “that doesn’t fit” whereas “big” in this sense is part of the Sack cut. Which, once again, I do not prefer. But not because it doesn’t fit.

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