a humorous extract of an email to my mother

Context is that she's asking me to help her get a mortgage and for some cash so that she can realize some stupid investment scheme she has:

As for your proposal, I don't know what you're asking of me... 19k cash + 300/mo indefinitely (interest-only mortgage)? What makes you think someone taking on all the financial risk would be willing to accept only 10% of the profit? That's not the way the world works. I'd have thought you'd learned that by now. I also see that the concept of risk vs. reward continues to elude you because it's apparent you still haven't figured out there are no easy and surefire ways to make money and that there is always a downside. Here's a tip... You're 65ish? People at that age aren't supposed to be taking big risks with money unless they have lots of it. Any half-decent financial advisor would tell you that the older you get, the safer your investments should get. Let's put it in gambling terms, since that's essentially what you're proposing I or anyone else do. Based on what you've said in the past, you're hoping to clear 200k above and beyond the purchase price? So let's say 390k after all is said and done? 19k for the house, another 20k-ish for moving and other costs (i have no idea what they'd be but i feel i'm probably being charitable)? My investment for a year would be 44k, in the absolute best case scenario. A sale at 390k would clear 200k. In reality, i'd be risking 44k to make 113k after cap gains taxes, though it would probably be even less after school taxes, "welcome" taxes, and other bs I'm probably not thinking about, but let's be kind and say i'd be risking 44k to make 113k (we'll get to the part about you giving me only 10% of the profit later). To make that bet, I'd roughly need odds of better than 2.6:1 for it to make any sense at all. Do you provide me a better than ~38% chance of making those odds? Meh... There is a lot that could go wrong in what you're proposing and I don't even know how to go about quantifying all the risks, which entices me to be conservative. A couple lessons on odds and gambling. 1) odds are probabilities representing the likely outcome of an event. They do not represent certain outcomes. 2) an intelligent gambler (as opposed to a degen) would only be willing to make that bet - even if he had the odds - if he also had a big enough bankroll to ride out the variance in whatever game he was playing. I have neither the the time nor inclination to work out the actual variance in the kind of transaction you're proposing, but I know right now I can't really afford to lose 44k without hating myself. 3) scared money makes bad decisions. To translate that into your circumstances: you have no money, you're worried about the future, and you're hoping for a big pay-off to make everything ok. In other words, you're reaching. Lastly, you're proposal of only paying me 10% of the profit negates all the numbers above. I'd be risking 44k to make 13k, if everything worked out perfectly (it never does). If it wasn't sold at the end of year 2 that would be down to 7-8k, I'm guessing. Time to take some math classes, Michelle. I don't see in what universe I'd make that bet.

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As someone who is ethnically Chinese, I am in shock that you would speak to your mother like that, no matter how bone headed she is.
You address your mother by her FIRST NAME?

Did you forget to post the humorous part?

Originally Posted by Duff_Man

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As someone who is ethnically Chinese, I am in shock that you would speak to your mother like that, no matter how bone headed she is.
You address your mother by her FIRST NAME?

I am not very close with her. She's basically been disowned by her entire family (including parents and siblings) due to her unwillingness to change her ways. She desperately needs a reality check. I've tried every other way of explaining reality to her. Beating around the bush and being nice but forceful about it ain't cutting it. My grandparents will probably die this year and my mother will almost certainly piss away the only money she has coming to her (she has none of her own) unless she stops dreaming stupid dreams. Maybe when she finally understands there is no more safety net and that this is her very last chance at some financial security, she will start to see reason.

actually, that was my first thought too. I sounds like you're talking to a car salesman or a snotty teenager. Wow, she's your mother, stupid or not. I'm not saying to give her the cash, but this seems a little much.

you know how patient she was with you when you were a kid? now it's your turn. Just suck it up a little and bite your lip because that's what family's all about. This is when she needs your help or understanding the most, not your scorn. I know it's easier said than done, really I do. This is what it means to be a man.

good luck. but she is your mom, and you should try as hard as you can to treat her gently.

Originally Posted by robin

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Did you forget to post the humorous part?

My perspective is skewed by years of dealing with her, but it's humorous to me that anyone could think the above investment was a good idea. I frankly think the whole situation with my mother is sad, but she doesn't listen and is her own worst enemy. If I don't give her the money and spring for the mortgage she'll do it when she gets her inheritance, which invested wisely could at least provide a little extra comfort for her remaining years. Instead, she's going to piss it away unless it finally clicks how catastrophically stupid her idea is.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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good luck. but she is your mom, and you should try as hard as you can to treat her gently.
I think you've read more of these posts than most.... The whole family has been trying to gently nudge her to see reason for the past 8 years... The rest of her family, including her parents, won't even deal with her anymore, so it's all on me... I don't know how else to deal with her anymore. I've tried to explain things kindly and rationally to her but she refuses to listen. She needs to see reality but she thinks she's always right and always knows best, even though her decisions have caused one disaster after another for her since the late 90s.

My parents took care of me for my first couple of decades, so I don't mind returning the favor for their last decades, but it still pisses me off that they have zero savings and are completely clueless with money. I shouldn't have to be their ******* accountant.

Originally Posted by GQgeek

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I think you've read more of these posts than most.... The whole family has been trying to gently nudge her to see reason for the past 8 years... The rest of her family, including her parents, won't even deal with her anymore, so it's all on me... I don't know how else to deal with her anymore. I've tried to explain things kindly and rationally to her but she refuses to listen. She needs to see reality but she thinks she's always right and always knows best, even though her decisions have caused one disaster after another for her since the late 90s.

believe me, I understand you, and I'm in a similar place. just saying, if you treat her gently, you will always be able to tell yourself that you treated her gently no matter how much she drives you nuts. seriously, good luck

Originally Posted by Duff_Man

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As someone who is ethnically Chinese, I am in shock that you would speak to your mother like that, no matter how bone headed she is.
You address your mother by her FIRST NAME?

I don't think you need to be Chinese to find it strange. Geek, I get it, there are some real disasters in my family, but posting this kind of scolding of your mother in a public forum is a little unseemly.

Originally Posted by Duff_Man

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As someone who is ethnically Chinese, I am in shock that you would speak to your mother like that, no matter how bone headed she is. You address your mother by her FIRST NAME?
As someone who is ethnically pure as driven snow (white) I also am shocked that you would speak to your mother like that. First name is OK, the rest, not so much. Where's your dad to put the belt to you when you need it? edit: Ok, I see there is context but still . . .

Is this your Mom or stepmom?

I guess it really doesn't matter, but it would seem more natural if she were your stepmom.

Also, you say that she is 65ish. I thought you were about 21. Are you the youngest or an only child? You do say that she listens to no one, so I guess a sibling or your Dad could not help set her straight.

d-bag
You.
Not your mother.

Originally Posted by rnoldh

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Is this your Mom or stepmom? I guess it really doesn't matter, but it would seem more natural if she were your stepmom. Also, you say that she is 45ish. I thought you were about 21. Are you the youngest or an only child? You do say that she listens to no one, so I guess a sibling or your Dad could not help set her straight.
She's close to 60, though i'm not sure her exact age I'm the oldest. Believe it or not, I'm the only one she kinda listens to because I'm the only one that's consistently level-headed and rational, but that doesn't stop her from completely disregarding everything I say. My dad wants nothing to do with her, to the point where he's willing to let the bank foreclose on a house as long as he doesn't have to deal with her. It'll make the divorce nice and easy to finalize, which he's been trying to do since 2002 or 2003. They've been separated since the 90s. She cost him millions (his entire life's work) when the hotel went bankrupt. It was his fault as well for not being more forceful with her and not lawyering up before things came to a head with the gov't, but he was playing nice because we the kids were still in the picture and it cost him everything (he lost the other 2 kids anyway; I'm the only one that speaks to him). Ultimately she usurped control and kept information from him while he lived in a different city to supplement family income (hotel was on an aggressive mortgage repayment schedule) so his options were limited if he wanted to maintain relative peace for our sake. Someone mentioned snotty teenagers.... She is one. She's 60 or 65 (can never remember what year she was born) and she behaves exactly like a teenager. She was kicked out of her parents house last year. My siblings don't talk to her at all. She has tantrums and won't talk. I constantly have to intervene on her behalf with the rest of the family (though to be fair her sisters are kinda bitches). I'm a part-time mediator b/c of this and was for the divorce too - I had to diffuse her delusions about my father's hidden wealth. When you tell her something she doesn't want to hear, she ignores it, no matter who it comes from. That doesn't stop her from asking for money after she's contravened your advice and suffers the consequences. I don't know how many times i've had to pay bailiffs for her. The only reason i continue to do it is because if she loses the grand piano then she loses something essential to being able to earn a living. None of this is new behavior that's the resultant of the onset of old age. She thinks only about how things affect her (my father's principal complain from the marriage), and always has. She used to leave me overnight at school to find a place to sleep. It happened so often my physics prof found out and gave me free residence (it helped i was his best student so he could call it a scholarship). Yeah, great parenting there... There are myriad reasons why I'm not close to her. I'm long over them, but we will never be close, and i'm fine with that at this point. That said, I don't want to see her live in poverty either, and I try to encourage her on positive things, like starting to teach piano again, keeping her from losing it to bailiffs, getting settled in a new city, but this **** is plain dumb and i'm not going to sugarcoat it to spare her feelings. This is her 3rd time bringing this up, and I shot it down nicely the past two times.If it's not this it'll be something else b/c she keeps looking for things that amount to being get rich quick schemes to make everything OK. I'm at a loss as to how i should deal with her. She's a total disaster. I'm actually telling my grandparents to put her inheritance into an annuity or something so she can't piss it away all at once, because given the chance, she will.