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Elephant leather shoes - Page 5

post #61 of 170
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Originally Posted by MarcellHUN View Post
I am just wondering why I don'T get these many reflects, when I post a simple calfskin shoe... .

I think its a sign, you should make more shoes from stingray, eel, shark, iguana, chicken (yes chicken), fish (yes fish) ... ...
post #62 of 170
Very interesting! Have never heard of elephant shoes before
post #63 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcellHUN View Post
I am just wondering why I don'T get these many reflects, when I post a simple calfskin shoe...
I think it's indicative of the amount of misinformation that is on the Internet and the prevalence of wishful, self-congratulatory thinking that keeps such misinformation virulently viral.
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Anyway: thanks for your post DWFII.
Hey, no problem...what are friends for?
post #64 of 170
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Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
I apologize but it has to be said...this is a case of "don't confuse me with the facts."

I've used elephant for over forty years. I've seen a time (+20 years ago) when some of my suppliers went to jail for selling it...in Texas, not California. I've seen a time when American Alligator(domestically produced) came with a tag (still does) and a stack of cards...all of which had to be filled out and returned detailing the usage of every square inch of leather.

CITES and other International organizations made that moot. Elephant comes into the US as a carefully regulated product subject to tight controls.

If it comes from legitimate sources the skins are tracked back to the country of origin and, the park or preserve where it was harvested. And, in turn, the responsible countries/parks/ management teams are required to faithfully monitor, record, and tag all skins with dates and places of harvest, reasons, and method. Much of this information must be passed on and must accompany the skins throughout their journey to the final buyer's consortiums.

If I contact one of my suppliers and order elephant today, it is legal. It came from legitimate sources and, in all likelihood, was killed humanely and for humane purposes. And it is every bit as ethical as walking on the surface of this planet or breathing the air about us.

It is all very well and good, when you don't know...when you are ignorant and seeking knowledge...to speculate and question (and then hopefully listen). But speculation and emotional fantasy are all it is if it denies reality.

PS...on edit...good elephant is not hard or boardy although I've seen elephant that was like that. Good elephant is as soft (except for the surface) and as supple as a comparable weight of calf.

And yes, the grey is as bland and uninteresting as it gets. Other colours, especially the browns are beautiful, with tonal variations and a sense of depth and patina.

Very, very informative. Thank you. The only lingering issue I have with the usage of humanely, ethically harvested elephant hide (and, admittedly, it is a weak argument), is that it may undermine larger efforts to protect the species, by creating the illusion that the elephant is no longer in danger of extinction. The information you've shared is not common knowledge.
post #65 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by acridsheep View Post
Very, very informative. Thank you. The only lingering issue I have with the usage of humanely, ethically harvested elephant hide (and, admittedly, it is a weak argument), is that it may undermine larger efforts to protect the species, by creating the illusion that the elephant is no longer in danger of extinction. The information you've shared is not common knowledge.
I understand your point but I don't think you've thought it through. Consider this... If there were no parks or preserves, there would be no elephants left at all. Indigenous peoples are not like you and I (a generic "you and I")--coddled, privileged, given to flights of fancy and intellectual navel-gazing. They are confronted with the hard realities of survival every day, every hour. They do not have the luxury to get all sentimental about big brown cow eyes (unless they're in a bowl of soup). Without CITES, without the parks, without an International effort to control the commerce in elephant hides, there would be no elephants left to weep over. The fact that there are such preserves and such restrictions is a testament to good people trying to ameliorate a difficult situation in the real world. Within parks the gene pool and the population can be preserved and controlled. But too large a herd can threaten all...just as too large a human footprint can threaten all. Disease and overgrazing, requires that animals be harvested and their numbers kept with manageable limits. Selling the hides of culled animals supports the parks and that in turn, supports indigenous cultures...which, in an Ourorboros-like fashion, supports the parks, at least tacitly--to the point, at any rate, where the rangers and management are not killed or unceremoniously driven from their duties protecting a Traditional source of protein and implements of survival. And in the process every possible part the culled animals are used for good purpose. The demand for elephant hide is there world-wide (and if it weren't, I suspect the Traditions of indigenous people would more than make up for the lack) and it has been there for as long as people and elephants have co-existed on this planet. Would you rather, then, that the hides (and the money from selling them) be denied the Parks and countries and peoples who support the preservation of the herds? Would you rather the hides went to waste? Seems to me that the real problem...what got us into the mess we are in, and continues to aggravate the mess we are in, is just that--waste.
post #66 of 170
Very well written DWFII, thank you. One thing to add is that just because an animal is endangered world wide (as the elephant) doesn't mean that it is locally. Many of the African national parks are too small to acommodate large number of elephants, so culling is needed otherwise they would be turned into desert very fast. Same is true of land outside the parks of course, and that's why limited, controlled, licence hunting in several countries is allowed, which also brings in a lot of money (even more so than regular safari tourism). /C
post #67 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by acridsheep View Post
Very, very informative. Thank you. The only lingering issue I have with the usage of humanely, ethically harvested elephant hide (and, admittedly, it is a weak argument), is that it may undermine larger efforts to protect the species, by creating the illusion that the elephant is no longer in danger of extinction. The information you've shared is not common knowledge.
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Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
I understand your point but I don't think you've thought it through. Consider this...
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Originally Posted by Clark View Post
Very well written DWFII, thank you. One thing to add is that just because an animal is endangered world wide (as the elephant) doesn't mean that it is locally. Many of the African national parks are too small to acommodate large number of elephants, so culling is needed otherwise they would be turned into desert very fast. Same is true of land outside the parks of course, and that's why limited, controlled, licence hunting in several countries is allowed, which also brings in a lot of money (even more so than regular safari tourism). /C
A little bit of digging turned up this. The author's bio states his credentials, and as with everything on the internet, you have to either accept them or not. In either case, the article makes good points about conservation, culling, and all of that jazz. I'm no where near the level this guy claims to be, but I have some conservation training, and I have to say that my training seems like it would jive with this. Over population can be just as much of a problem as under population, and can often cause more damage to the other species which interact with the overpopulated. As an example here in North Texas, Juniper trees are an invasive species which require population control lest they choke out all of the other neighboring flora. Another good example is the wolf population here in the US. Recently they were removed from the endangered species list and hunting of wolves was allowed because they were beginning to overpopulate. A third example is the limited culling of Kangaroos in Australia, which, from what I understand, occurs under very specific and tight regulations. Species maintenance includes more than just making sure they don't die out, but also making sure that they don't over breed so there's not enough food, and making sure they don't adversely affect the other populations that they interact with.
post #68 of 170
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Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
Aside from human skin, I can't think of a single leather that would make me less comfortable than elephant.
Really? Stingray is a lot stiffer and less comfortable IME. Very hard to break in. Shark's a bit less comfortbale than elephant, too.
post #69 of 170
So, strictly using this logic, wearing human skin should be completely acceptable, no?
post #70 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by acridsheep View Post
So, strictly using this logic, wearing the human skin should be completely acceptable, no?



You should spend more time in CE. If this is how you do logic you'll fit right in over there.
post #71 of 170
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Originally Posted by Mark from Plano View Post
You should spend more time in CE. If this is how you do logic you'll fit right in over there.
Use DWF's logic and combat the premise; it'd be more impressive than cheap sarcasm. BTW - I am strictly debating here, not revealing any hidden moral conundrum with ethically harvested hide.
post #72 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by acridsheep View Post
So, strictly using this logic, wearing the human skin should be completely acceptable, no?
Well, I don't know how my logic gets you there??! It seems altogether too facile to throw in the non-issue of human skins. If I follow your logic as I am reading it, it would not be stretching things too much to suggest that human beings have no right to eat or utilize anything on the face of the earth (including plants) except perhaps each other. Which raises all kinds of specious questions about self-loathing and despair and the future of our species. Questions which I wouldn't have the temerity to raise myself. That said, the demand for elephant leather would, even in the Bizarro world you propose, still, and always, be greater than for human skin. Human leather would be too thin, too delicate and I doubt there would be enough of a market to support the farms.
post #73 of 170
I'd be more interested in hearing how DFW's logic supports the premise that wearing human skin is acceptable.

edit - posted before I read DFW's response.
post #74 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by acridsheep View Post
So, strictly using this logic, wearing human skin should be completely acceptable, no?

Only if it were humanely killed and no parts went to waste.
post #75 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
Well, I don't know how my logic gets you there??! It seems altogether too facile to throw in the non-issue of human skins.

If I follow your logic as I am reading it, it would not be stretching tings too much to suggest that human being have no right to eat or utilize anything on the face of the earth (including plants) except perhaps each other. Which raises all kinds of specious questions about self-loathing and despair and the future of our species. Questions which I wouldn't have the temerity to raise myself.

That said, the demand for elephant leather would, even in the Bizarro world you propose, still, and always, be greater than for human skin. Human leather would be too thin, too delicate and I doubt there would be enough of a market to support the farms.


I am making no claims about the morality of elephant hide clothing. I am simply applying your logic to other hides, including humans. If overpopulation of species is the problem you claim it is (I am inclined to agree that it is so, especially for humans, FWIW), and the hides are gathered in strict accordance to laws rooted in preservation and conservation, then why couldn't the same hold true for any skins, including human?

Obviously the idea of wearing human skin shoes (or coats, or anything) is abhorrent, but isn't that just an emotional response not, in fact, rooted in logic? You are essentially scoffing at the emotionalism applied to elephant hide clothing, but towing the line when it comes to human hide, is how I'm reading it.
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