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Fashion and morality - Page 3

post #31 of 50
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a) switching the pants on a suit/pant combo so they'll fit you. or, switching shoes so you'll get 2 diff sized shoes for your feet so they'll fit you.
Why is it that people think that a store is so rich that it is okay to cheat them. If a store mis-matched the pants and didn't tell you, would you not be filled with righteous indignation and demand a refund? Let's say you do the above - the store owner sells the suit you screwed up and the buyer returns it for a refund - angrily. So you screwed the store and made them look bad with another (honest) customer. Isn't that peachy. Here's a radical suggestion - go to the store owner/mgr and ask them if they can accomodate you instead of taking the attitude that nobody matters but you. How would you feel if someone went to your office and messed with your work product, making you look stupid in front of your boss. Oh wait, that's different - you'd be the one getting screwed then and the evil store is actually in business to make money, hence they are evil.
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b) switching tags on items, so that you can purchase something for a lower price
I believe this is what we call theft, unless it's over $100 and then it is felony theft. Anyone who does this is a thief, end of discussion.
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d) hiding something before a sale, so that you can come back later and purchase it for the sale price. We're assuming that the store doesn't have pre-sale.
Ok, I'll relent a bit and call this aggressive shopping, part of the power shoppers bag of tricks. If you hide it at the bottom of the pile or back of the rack then fine... If you hide it in a vent in the dressing room for a month you are interfering with someone else's ability to put food on the table, maybe you should consider if you'd be happy about it if your boss said on payday "Hey, we decided to pay you next month, at 50%". Why is it that people make the assumption that a store owner is somehow an adversary who is out to steal their money? I just don't get that attitude.
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e) wearing fur. I know this isn't popular in men's fashion, but let's say those full length fur coats from the Harvard-Yale games became popular again
At least be consistant. If you proclaim fur to be wrong, then you have to give up leather and meat as well. Either it is wrong to use other animals or it is not. In the case of an endangered/protected species I would be against it. In the case of mink? Hey buddy, it's cold and you are wearing my coat - run fast or die. It tickles me watching someone wearing leather shoes and eating bacon and eggs having a hissy fit over fur - unless the cow and pig who provided your shoes and breakfast were depressed and commited suicide together after filling out an organ donor card this is poor logic.
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f) buying clothes from a country that is repressive, so that this money helps to prop up a dictorship. Or, buying clothes from a region where you know that the working conditions are very exploitative and that workers get paid just a pittance. I think this is referring to probably to every non NATO country
If those workers have their pittance cut off do they still eat? I hear what you are saying and agree with using your wallet to support or decline to support companies/governments you disagree with but let's be careful. If we are talking forced labor that's one thing, if we are applying American standards of a 'fair' wage we're not seeing reality. We have people in this country deemed poor who have a car, home, food on the table and are forced to live without premium cable channels on thier TV. Before boycotting a company that has what you deem to be exploitative employment practices be sure to ask the exploited whether or not they want thier job cut off and what they'll do if the factory closes.
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h) how about buying products from companies that use child labor. Didn't nike have that problem. All i remember is that Air Jordan said that it wasn't his problem. Imagine if Kathy Lee Gifford had said that
Generally no. One of the earlier responses pointed out that in many places kids work and that helps the family eat. If we are talking 14 year olds folding shirts it is one thing, if we are talking 6 year olds cleaning out machines and losing fingers now and then because they have smaller hands that's another thing entirely. I'd settle for getting my child to clean her room.
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i) Selling, buying 2nd hand items like on EBay. Before downloading, weren't singers complaining about how they weren't getting paid for their CDs sold by stores for used CDS. I think Garth Brooks made a fuss about this when he was the King. Can you use that same argument for when we buy clothes on Ebay.
Depends on the item. If the item is like Software that has been opened/used and the license agreement specifically prohibits resale then themaker has a right to complain. For something like a suit, a boat, a car, or a set of Ginsu knives from 80's infomercials why not? You aren't taking anything from anyone or exploiting anyone - you have property that you own exclusively that someone is happy to pay for at a reduced price - win/win situation. Garth's gripe, if I am not mistaken, was with the notion of people copying a tape/cd then selling it. In that case I can see his point - you have no right to sell his work without compensating him. Selling a bunch of CD's you no longer listen to is (my opinion) not hurting the artist, copying the files to your computer and burning CDs for resale or download is stealing from the artist. It would have been better had a young songwriter made the argument rather than a guy knocking down $50M per year though :-). Kinda like hearing Imelda Marcos complain that she did not have enough shoes to wear.
post #32 of 50
My answer: ignore this question and keep buying stuff. Who gives a shit about them children when you need to impress people around you and hopefully make them green in the face from jealousy.[i] Oh did I say MY answer? What I meant was YOUR answer, the point being that high fashion is inherently immoral. And isn't it interesting that you were not only unable to recognize obvious sarcasm, but also unable to give YOUR answer. Most of you indeed chose to ignore the post, for it is not pleasant to admit that your high moral in fact is worthless.
post #33 of 50
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quote] So when you die can I piss on your grave?
pissing on my grave...well what a cute point. Alias, let me ask you this: would you agree to accept $10mil today in exchange for 10 million one-dollar tickets giving the holders the right to shit on your grave? (nice pile of shit, huh?) Allow me to suggest that to decline such a generous offer would make one an idiot (unless one is already very rich).
post #34 of 50
kosmopolit, i'll answer your question. first, if a grown man wants to put cocaine up his nose he has every right to do so (in my book). so long as he supplies me with what i want (the clothes) and i give him what he wants (the $), i need not how he will spend his money. that is his responsibility, not mine. as for the starving children in africa, keep in mind that africa is the richest continent on earth in terms of natural resources and their problem is not lack of wealth, but the way in which it is distributed. the $200 one might spend on a helmut lang shirt is not going to topple government corruption or ancient tribal rivalries. i commend you for at least bringing up a subject that is close to my heart. here is a website that may be of interest to you. bread.org
post #35 of 50
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pissing on my grave...well what a cute point. Alias, let me ask you this: would you agree to accept $10mil today in exchange for 10 million one-dollar tickets giving the holders the right to shit on your grave? (nice pile of shit, huh?) Allow me to suggest that to decline such a generous offer would make one an idiot (unless one is already very rich).
If you'd sell me one I'd buy it right away.
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My answer: ignore this question and keep buying stuff. Who gives a shit about them children when you need to impress people around you and hopefully make them green in the face from jealousy.
If someone's looking to make people jealous through his clothes, he's probably are trying to compensate for something. Dressing well doesn't give anyone permission to act like a retard. (Witness the banning of a certain troll who used this board; his 50-something bespoke suits couldn't save his attitude.) I don't dress to make people jealous. I dress well because I choose to look clean-cut and professional.
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Oh did I say MY answer? What I meant was YOUR answer, the point being that high fashion is inherently immoral.
High fashion doesn't need to be inherently immoral. And besides, this is the Style Forum, not the Fashion Forum. There's a difference between style and fashion. The more time you spend around here, the more this will become apparent to you. There's nothing immoral about going to your tailor to get a suit cut, unless the wool came from a sheep who had its ear snipped by a lazy shearer, but they usually watch out for that. Also, I'm assuming you're not from PETA.
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And isn't it interesting that you were not only unable to recognize obvious sarcasm, but also unable to give YOUR answer.  Most of you indeed chose to ignore the post, for it is not pleasant to admit that your high moral in fact is worthless.
It isn't worthless, because it makes me come off as less of a prick. They say that sarcasm is a poor man's wit. You've illustrated this brilliantly. So to answer your question: 1. I don't cling to any such designer, but I'll go with the next best thing: If I found out that my tailor was using my money to support his drug habit, there won't be any guilt coming from me. The money was his the moment it exchanged hands, and he was free to use it as how he saw fit. That's the whole point of money: It's liquid. 2. So if a thousand people die in Africa because I had money and chose to spend it on something, it's my fault that they die? How about the fault of their government, or the rival tribe that's trying to hack them all to pieces? How about the people who steal and pillage any aid trying to get its way through? There are more direct sources of suffering, and linking my spending money on clothes to such a calamity is like trying to link the air coming off of a butterfly's wings to a hurricane in Tennessee. (In other words, you had better be a great chaos theorist.) It's possible to be morally responsible and well-dressed. I've met very few people (even on the Internet) who have the sort of mental attitude that you have described.
post #36 of 50
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pissing on my grave...well what a cute point. Alias, let me ask you this: would you agree to accept $10mil today in exchange for 10 million one-dollar tickets giving the holders the right to shit on your grave? (nice pile of shit, huh?)
I want no part of the excretion contest y'all have going but could I get in on this whole $10M for forming a compost pile over my grave? ...ah, the new lines i could do with that kind of funding. I'll sell tickets for 25 cents and settle for 2.5M actually.
post #37 of 50
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Posted by kosmopolit Ok here is my question. Suppose you buy an expensive piece of designer clothing. Next month you open the newspaper and find out: 1. Your designer died in a car accident in his Ferrari.  He was on coke (in essence bought with your very $$)
Give me a break..  Do the concepts of free will and personal responsibility mean anything to you?
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Post by kosmopolit 2. 1000 children in Africa died from hunger (desperately in need of $$). The question: how can you ever justify spending your money the way you did?
Gentlemen, we have a moralist in our midsts.  Instead of spending your time proselytizing in a forum intended for those interested in style and clothes, you ought to be volunteering your time engaged in some worthy humanitarian endeavor with the hope of assisting the suffering and underprivileged of the world (a noble cause, indeed).  Better yet, why not set aside your very palpable hypocracy and engage in a bit of honest self-evalution: I strongly suspect that you will find that you live in a manner far more worldly than necessary.  Begin by unburdening yourself of all YOUR worldly possessions, then you can return to us and demonstrate your moral superiority.  Perhaps then, your sententious bullshit will not fall so flat.  We'll be waiting.
post #38 of 50
rayk, take it easy. i think the guy had good intentions and that is worth a lot.
post #39 of 50
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I want no part of the excretion contest y'all have going but could I get in on this whole $10M for forming a compost pile over my grave? ...ah, the new lines i could do with that kind of funding.  I'll sell tickets for 25 cents and settle for 2.5M actually.
Will this make us shareholders?
post #40 of 50
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Ok here is my question. Suppose you buy an expensive piece of designer clothing. Next month you open the newspaper and find out: 1. Your designer died in a car accident in his Ferrari.  He was on coke (in essence bought with your very $$) 2. 1000 children in Africa died from hunger
1. I had nothing to do with it. 2. Name 3. My question back to you, with all due respect... 1. Have you sold everything and gone to work as a missionary after donating all you have earned for others? 2. Is it just designer clothing or other purchases that are the root cause of world hunger and cocaine induced Ferrari accidents?
post #41 of 50
Ah... this thread started off with the potential for stupidity, (after switching tags at a store and supporting from a repressive regime are two different classes of action, and really shouldn't be on the same list) and now the stupidity has come on strong.  
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Oh did I say MY answer? What I meant was YOUR answer, the point being that high fashion is inherently immoral... Most of you indeed chose to ignore the post, for it is not pleasant to admit that your high moral in fact is worthless.
Actually, I chose to ignore your post because it was stupid and didn't merit my attention.  You seem to be suggesting that attention to high fashion and personal and institutional morality are somehow incompatible; but you've offered no compelling evidence to show that, nor in fact any evidence at all.   And your questions about the hypothetical case are not sound.  To wit, and I'm borrowing freely from you here: "Ok here is my question. Suppose you buy a" piece of pie. "Next month you open the newspaper and find out: 1. Your" baker "died in a car accident in his Ferrari.  He was on coke (in essence bought with your very $$)" I suppose by this reasoning that I should never eat a tasty baked good again. *Edited for a grammatical mistake*
post #42 of 50
OK, Guys... Like the discussions of ethics. Don't like the ad hominems I'm beginning to see posted. Please read the posting policy if you're unsure about this. Thanks.
post #43 of 50
Thread Starter 
Ca-ca- can't we all get along. When I started this thread, I wasn't trolling for something like this. I just wanted to see the intersection of fashion and morality, how they might influence each other. So, I'll answer my original thread. Yes, switching tags is stealing regardless of the store's mark-up. First of all, clothing is not a necessity. (collective gasp of horror in this forum). You don't have to buy it if you don't like the price. And, stores have a mark-up to pay for the item from the manufacturer, to pay rent, to pay their employees, etc... And, the reason it has a higher mark-up than say washing machines is because clothing stores have to carry so many diff sizes for each item, whereas washing machines don't have this problem.
post #44 of 50
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First of all, clothing is not a necessity. (collective gasp of horror in this forum).
Blasphemy...... Forget ad-hominems Steve, this guy is outright heretical now. Next he'll dare to suggest that cashmere isn't a necessity. Now I am deeply wounded. Time to add anti-sartorialism to the things disallowed on the forum Steve, to even suggest that fine menswear is not as essential as the air we breathe is totally uncalled for.
post #45 of 50
Thread Starter 
When I say necessity, I mean a necessity to survive like how we need air and water to survive. We can still live, although a uncomfortable existence, if we still wear a poorly constructed suit instead of a Brioni.
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