conservative business dress WAYWRN: An Experiment

Originally Posted by Manton

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They don't work for me personally. I also don't like the look.

You mean they don't hold up the trousers? I agree that the buckled type doesn't really work that well, but then neither do belts, unless you wear trousers at your natural waist. I've got a fitting for a pair of trousers with buttoned side tabs and hidden elastic tomorrow -- hopefully it'll work better.

As for not liking the look, well, that's an interesting departure from SF consensus. In Naples and in Italy generally they certainly like their belts. But I'm trending more and more towards the beltless look, and braces end up looking too pretentious more often than not.

I hate the look of side tabs. Something is missing in the silhouette without a belt IMO. I ask my tailor to add belt loops every time I bring an OTR suit that has side tabs.

Love this^^^

But, I personally can't get my head around wearing bluchers with anything but the most country-like, tweedy suits.

Originally Posted by radicaldog

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You mean they don't hold up the trousers? I agree that the buckled type doesn't really work that well, but then neither do belts, unless you wear trousers at your natural waist. I've got a fitting for a pair of trousers with buttoned side tabs and hidden elastic tomorrow -- hopefully it'll work better.

As for not liking the look, well, that's an interesting departure from SF consensus. In Naples and in Italy generally they certainly like their belts. But I'm trending more and more towards the beltless look, and braces end up looking too pretentious more often than not.
I use a single piece of fabric that goes hidden through the back of the trousers (like half a belt) with a bit of elastic in it. Very comfortable and my trousers don't fall all all during the day if I wear those.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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I hate the look of side tabs. Something is missing in the silhouette without a belt IMO. I ask my tailor to add belt loops every time I bring an OTR suit that has side tabs.

I guess for me this is the exact opposite I think belts completely ruin the silhouette on a suit. However this is the conservative business dress thread so I already know I won't be getting much more backup in that opinion (and that's probably how it should be).

However, I figured side tabs would be conservative business dress, so is that a case of Manton disliking them but still working, or them not being conservative business dress? At least for me it doesn't matter much since no one notices outside of a picture (that part of me is always going to be covered up by something).

Originally Posted by aportnoy

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Love this^^^

But, I personally can't get my head around wearing bluchers with anything but the most country-like, tweedy suits.

Why?
Someone somewhere decided that oxfords were more formal than bluchers but there's no intrinsic reason for this. You can argue that smooth solid worsteds are more formal than rough patterned tweeds and there is an intrinsic rationale for that, but to me the oxfords vs bluchers thing is based wholly on tradition and not on any more tangible reason.
I don't like oxfords at all. They might be accepted as more formal but look like nerd shoes to me plus my feet don't like 'em either!
Now those pictured have a pebble grain which dials down the formality a notch, but in calf they would be no less formal to my unbiased eye.

Originally Posted by Ianiceman

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Why?
Someone somewhere decided that oxfords were more formal than bluchers but there's no intrinsic reason for this. You can argue that smooth solid worsteds are more formal than rough patterned tweeds and there is an intrinsic rationale for that, but to me the oxfords vs bluchers thing is based wholly on tradition and not on any more tangible reason.

You did see the part where I said "I personally?"

As to why, to my eye they are less formal than and therefore less appropriate to wear with suits and lend themselves more to odd jackets and trousers.

Originally Posted by aportnoy

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You did see the part where I said "I personally?"

As to why, to my eye they are less formal than and therefore less appropriate to wear with suits and lend themselves more to odd jackets and trousers.

Oops! Didn't mean to jump on you personally, I'm more curious to know the origin of the accepted tradition.

Originally Posted by Ianiceman

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Oops! Didn't mean to jump on you personally, I'm more curious to know the origin of the accepted tradition.
No worries. It probably has as much to do with my age which is pushing 50 than anything else. Though, I must admit that sleek bluchers from the likes of Lobb, Cothay etc. look great with a slim cut suit trouser with no cuff. It may not be my style, but it does looks good.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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I hate the look of side tabs. Something is missing in the silhouette without a belt IMO. I ask my tailor to add belt loops every time I bring an OTR suit that has side tabs.

But how do you really feel?

We'll just agree to disagree. :^)

I think there's something fun about side adjusters. You do run the risk of not being able to wear a pair of trousers if there has been waist fluctuation that season, but it's worth it for something different IMO. I get most of my suits done with the ability to wear braces with side adjusters which I'm sure just made Manton gasp for air. I haven't been into belts with suits recently, likely because I don't wear suits too often (once a month) so I prefer them to be unique in that regard.

Originally Posted by aeglus

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I use a single piece of fabric that goes hidden through the back of the trousers (like half a belt) with a bit of elastic in it. Very comfortable and my trousers don't fall all all during the day if I wear those.
Yes, that's what I'm having made at the moment, for a pair of heavy linen trousers. I'm beginning to like the no belt look even for odd trousers. Anyway I'm pretty sure that side tabs are suitable for conservative business dress, or at least the sort of conservative business dress with flair that this thread is about, no?

Originally Posted by radicaldog

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Yes, that's what I'm having made at the moment, for a pair of heavy linen trousers. I'm beginning to like the no belt look even for odd trousers.

Anyway I'm pretty sure that side tabs are suitable for conservative business dress, or at least the sort of conservative business dress with flair that this thread is about, no?

Agreed all around!

Originally Posted by Ianiceman

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Why?
Someone somewhere decided that oxfords were more formal than bluchers but there's no intrinsic reason for this. You can argue that smooth solid worsteds are more formal than rough patterned tweeds and there is an intrinsic rationale for that, but to me the oxfords vs bluchers thing is based wholly on tradition and not on any more tangible reason.

I disagree. As a general principle, something more open is less formal, as it is less habillÃ

(e.g. you don't wear your dinner jacket unbuttoned etc.). The open lacing on bluchers/derbies is therefore a signifier of reduced formality. Having said that, there are plenty of bluchers that look fine with suits. But in very formal occasions only black oxfords will do.

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I'm not much of a loafer guy, and I can't imagine getting a pair in black...but those are great. Fantastic.
Care to share the make and model?

Originally Posted by radicaldog

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I disagree. As a general principle, something more open is less formal, as it is less habillÃ

(e.g. you don't wear your dinner jacket unbuttoned etc.). The open lacing on bluchers/derbies is therefore a signifier of reduced formality. Having said that, there are plenty of bluchers that look fine with suits. But in very formal occasions only black oxfords will do.

Hmm. I see where you ate coming from but still not convinced. If bluchers showed more sock I could understand (eg high vamp loafers could be considered more formal than low vamp with so much sock on display) but the foot is equally covered with Oxford or blucher. The origin of bluchers is supposedly military which is the general origin of black tie formality too. When count blucher introduced his open laced boots I wonder if the other generals go all snooty with him? ' Open lace boots with breeches? What am I, a farmer? '