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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 661

post #9901 of 11910

Who told you about my bell. :D 

post #9902 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

Honestly, I don't have a particular problem with toe-wear.  I just like how they go "tippety-tap".  

Funny that you brought this up.
On several occasions I have had customers request them that didn't need them.
We always inspect the toe area to see if the sole has worn to far towards the welt. If that's the case it needs a leather build up before we can install the flush mounted toe pieces. Many times I see the toe area shows hardly any wear. I tell the customer you really don't need them (I can tell his gait from the wear pattern).
I figure I'll save the guy $40.00. I get the same reply, "I want them anyway, I like the way they look".
post #9903 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodman View Post

Who told you about my bell. biggrin.gif  



Edited by Chowkin - 6/26/14 at 6:34pm
post #9904 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Better off to go with full rubber outsoles...longer wear than leather, usually less cost per resole (they should be anyway, less work) and full waterproof bottoms.

Yes, but I don't like the feel of full rubber outsoles. At least, I have never found any that feel as good as leather with a sole protector. Also, I like the look of the edge of the leather, even with a sole protector applied. Can't get that with a rubber sole. At least I don't see how one could.

 

I don't wear my dress shoes in other than the occasional shower, so a simple sole protector seems to be all I need to keep the leather sole from deteriorating in wet weather.

 

For serious hiking in the rain I use waterproof boots, but I can't wear those to work.

post #9905 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsgleason View Post


Both left and right and namely on the inside edge. I'm pronated which probably amplified the effect. The worst offenders are my most worn Allen Edmond's which are brown park avenues with single leather soles.

I have Aldens that I've worn more that have no discernible feeling of difference between the heel stack and the rest of the sole, buy they're all double leather as well which seems to help.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


You're on the right track--it's either a lack of a shank and/or an improperly set heel base.

Have they been repaired?

Sometimes a repair shop will get it into their heads that they know better than the manufacturer and regrind the bases to "level" them up.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Try holding the outside of the counters with your thumb and index fingers. The bottom of the heel should be resting in the palm of your hand. With the other hand grab the outside border of the welt with your thumb and index fingers. The outside of the sole should be resting on your palm. That hand should be slightly forward of where the ball of your foot would be. Now flex the shoe (not forcefully).

Do you hear a clicking sound?
Check the seam that attaches the sole to the base. Do you see significant separation while flexing?
Last, does the heel feel somewhat flexible or rigid.

Now, do the same thing with a single leather soled shoe.
Compare the two. Was the AE significantly more flexible?

If so, it sounds like you may have either a loose heel base or, a loose (maybe broken) shank.

 

It's probably worth pointing out that Allen Edmonds shoes are shankless and 360 degree welted, with low heels (about 5/8").  The waist is only about 1/2" above the ground.  I don't know what may be causing the discomfort, but just thought I'd simplify the equation.  I may be totally wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that his discomfort would be from the heel itself.  It would seem to me that this discomfort would only come from the heel if there were significant "sagging" in the shoe over time, but unless he is quite heavy or very flat footed, there doesn't seem to be enough rise from the ball to the heel for this to be likely. 

post #9906 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

It's probably worth pointing out that Allen Edmonds shoes are shankless and 360 degree welted, with low heels (about 5/8").  The waist is only about 1/2" above the ground.  I don't know what may be causing the discomfort, but just thought I'd simplify the equation.  I may be totally wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that his discomfort would be from the heel itself.  It would seem to me that this discomfort would only come from the heel if there were significant "sagging" in the shoe over time, but unless he is quite heavy or very flat footed, there doesn't seem to be enough rise from the ball to the heel for this to be likely. 

Well, theoretically a shoe with a heel that low can get by with a leather shank or sometimes wood is used. It would not be at all unusual for the maker to have stuck a shaped piece of outsole in the waist and called it good. Even high end shoes will do that with the lower heel heights...improperly, IMO.

With that grade of shoe and at that heel height, I'd actually be a little surprised if a metal shank has been used at all...although shanks are relatively minor cost of materials... for that reason, and I could be wrong, I doubt it is a broken shank.

Bottom line is that if the shank is weak, too-often-flexed leather or simply non-existent and the heel set a little high at the breast during bottoming, the heel could very well be the issue. I suspect it is a combination of a weak shank support and a poorly built heel.

--
Edited by DWFII - 6/26/14 at 8:06pm
post #9907 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post





It's probably worth pointing out that Allen Edmonds shoes are shankless and 360 degree welted, with low heels (about 5/8").  The waist is only about 1/2" above the ground.  I don't know what may be causing the discomfort, but just thought I'd simplify the equation.  I may be totally wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that his discomfort would be from the heel itself.  It would seem to me that this discomfort would only come from the heel if there were significant "sagging" in the shoe over time, but unless he is quite heavy or very flat footed, there doesn't seem to be enough rise from the ball to the heel for this to be likely. 

Well taken....
It could very well be the foot -or- the circumstance of the user. That's why I asked him to compare to another brand of singled leather soled shoes. Just looking to establish a benchmark. Maybe the issue can be pared down using a reference point.

AE says they don't use shanks. To keep things simple I consider anything that supports the heel and gives it more support a shank. No matter what it consists of. I see several pair a day. They are not made of steel or leather. It's more of a fiber content. I don't know exactly what it is. For those that want to dispute this or pick it to pieces.....go ahead. The intent was to make it security friendly. Meaning, for those that have to go through security measures on a regular basis would not have to be detained because of an inexpensive steel shank. To me they me they are in tuned with what the customer faces on a day to day basis and trying to make i it
more simple for them.
Last I heard they are manufacturing north of 2000 pair of shoes per day. To suggest the issue is a result of a manufacturing fault is not legit. Rather a one off. But, we don't' know...
post #9908 of 11910

It is my understanding that AE has been making shoes without a shank, or without a steel shank, for a very long time. Long before the airports used metal detectors. That may be a benefit of the design, but it is not the reason for it. Remember that, for years now, most people are required to remove their shoes when going through the detector, shank or no shank. So no real benefit unless someone is a trusted traveller.

 

I don't know nearly enough about shoes to offer an explanation, but I can share that I have the same problem with AE shoes. I never bought a pair because they always felt lacking in support. I have tried many different models and it is a common feature in all of them. It feels as if it is collapsing under my foot. Now, I favor double soled shoes and arch inserts, so I like a lot more support. As Nick points out, there are obviously many people who like AE shoes just they way they are.

 

For practical matters, I doubt anyone will be able to diagnose the problem on a forum. Send the shoes to a good cobbler or back to AE, describe the problem and see whether there is a defect, or this is just not the right shoe for you.

post #9909 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post





Well, I don't know how you did that so I can't say one way or the other but the inseam is roughly 5mm +/- from the edge of the outsole. That's about where the screws are set from the edge of the plate. How do you put the metal cleat on without hitting that seam line? Are you putting the screws closer to the edge? Too weak. And how much overhang needs to be removed?

Are you setting the plate further from the edge? How much outsole is unprotected?
 

 

First some information about me!! i am considered a big guy (6,2feet about 100kg well build) and the way i walk make the toes of my shoes some times hit-scratch the ground(depending on the design of the shoe, some round toe shoes dont touch at all)  so i thought a good idea to put some toe guards(not flashed, i used some that military or dancers uses most of the time)

as you can see in the photo  the screws were placed inside the stitching !! they are thin -short screws with big "wings" around the axle!! not touching the stitching at all and they are short enough not to pass through the outsole!!(btw the stitching passes along the outer edge of the steel plate about 2mm from the screws !)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post
 

For practical matters, I doubt anyone will be able to diagnose the problem on a forum. Send the shoes to a good cobbler or back to AE, describe the problem and see whether there is a defect, or this is just not the right shoe for you.

 

Totally agree on that!

post #9910 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Well, theoretically a shoe with a heel that low can get by with a leather shank or sometimes wood is used. It would not be at all unusual for the maker to have stuck a shaped piece of outsole in the waist and called it good. Even high end shoes will do that with the lower heel heights...improperly, IMO.

With that grade of shoe and at that heel height, I'd actually be a little surprised if a metal shank has been used at all...although shanks are relatively minor cost of materials... for that reason, and I could be wrong, I doubt it is a broken shank.

Bottom line is that if the shank is weak, too-often-flexed leather or simply non-existent and the heel set a little high at the breast during bottoming, the heel could very well be the issue. I suspect it is a combination of a weak shank support and a poorly built heel.

--

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Well taken....
It could very well be the foot -or- the circumstance of the user. That's why I asked him to compare to another brand of singled leather soled shoes. Just looking to establish a benchmark. Maybe the issue can be pared down using a reference point.

AE says they don't use shanks. To keep things simple I consider anything that supports the heel and gives it more support a shank. No matter what it consists of. I see several pair a day. They are not made of steel or leather. It's more of a fiber content. I don't know exactly what it is. For those that want to dispute this or pick it to pieces.....go ahead. The intent was to make it security friendly. Meaning, for those that have to go through security measures on a regular basis would not have to be detained because of an inexpensive steel shank. To me they me they are in tuned with what the customer faces on a day to day basis and trying to make i it
more simple for them.
Last I heard they are manufacturing north of 2000 pair of shoes per day. To suggest the issue is a result of a manufacturing fault is not legit. Rather a one off. But, we don't' know...

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post
 

It is my understanding that AE has been making shoes without a shank, or without a steel shank, for a very long time. Long before the airports used metal detectors. That may be a benefit of the design, but it is not the reason for it. Remember that, for years now, most people are required to remove their shoes when going through the detector, shank or no shank. So no real benefit unless someone is a trusted traveller.

 

I don't know nearly enough about shoes to offer an explanation, but I can share that I have the same problem with AE shoes. I never bought a pair because they always felt lacking in support. I have tried many different models and it is a common feature in all of them. It feels as if it is collapsing under my foot. Now, I favor double soled shoes and arch inserts, so I like a lot more support. As Nick points out, there are obviously many people who like AE shoes just they way they are.

 

For practical matters, I doubt anyone will be able to diagnose the problem on a forum. Send the shoes to a good cobbler or back to AE, describe the problem and see whether there is a defect, or this is just not the right shoe for you.

 

Thanks for everyone's reply.  Yes, all AE's are "shankless" according to their own marketing, and this can be verified by their production photos and videos, and have been since their inception.  They have nothing in the space underneath the insole other than gemming, cork, and that small piece of fiber that Nick mentioned.  It may be that AE's shoes are better suited to lighter weight people, who knows. 

 

@Nick V.Your company has obviously repaired AE's by the 1000's, so you would be in the best position to talk about that piece of fiber that is present and what it is for.  For what it's worth, I have read that it is called a fiber "heel tuck" and that it's actually there to serve as a gripping point for the nails from the heel.  AE doesn't drive nails all the way through the insole and then cover them up with a sock liner the way most other GY-welted manufacturers do.  I had read that the serrated nails being driven up through the bottom of the sole were intended to catch in that fiber piece to provide grip (the way a toggle bolt works in dry-wall).  I spotted a pair of old AE's that I picked up for a couple of bucks at a thrift shop recently that I wanted to dissect for my own learning purposes, and see if the nails are actually gripping it. 

post #9911 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post

First some information about me!! i am considered a big guy (6,2feet about 100kg well build) and the way i walk make the toes of my shoes some times hit-scratch the ground(depending on the design of the shoe, some round toe shoes dont touch at all)  so i thought a good idea to put some toe guards(not flashed, i used some that military or dancers uses most of the time)


as you can see in the photo  the screws were placed inside the stitching !! they are thin -short screws with big "wings" around the axle!! not touching the stitching at all and they are short enough not to pass through the outsole!!(btw the stitching passes along the outer edge of the steel plate about 2mm from the screws !)

Two things...First, those toe plates are not inset (you knew that), and were not really meant to be, so some of what I said doesn't apply. The need to cut away or thin the outsole, for instance, and the possible damage that would be done to the stitching, doesn't apply. However, it is clear from your photo that had you tried to inset the toe plate, the stitching would have been seriously compromised/damaged.

Second, the inseam is always further away from the edge than the outseam...You can't see it now but I have even money that if the screws holding your toe plate on are longer than 3-4mm, they are right in the inseam--cutting fibers in the threads that comprise the inseam. I doubt that the insole on that pair of shoes is very thick (maybe not even leather) and the shoe is almost certainly GY, which "features" a deep cork footbed, so possibly the damage is slight.

You did a good job, BTW... but it was my impression that the question was about inset (or "flush") toe plates. Aside from the fact that toe plates like you used tend to get worn and develop sharp edges that catch on, and cut, carpets...and the fact that they make you sound like a dray horse coming down the lane, or an M43A Sherman breaking through the hedgerows, or someone seriously in search of a fanfare lol8[1].gif ...they're pretty benign, IMO.

--
Edited by DWFII - 6/27/14 at 6:49am
post #9912 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

.  For what it's worth, I have read that it is called a fiber "heel tuck" and that it's actually there to serve as a gripping point for the nails from the heel.  AE doesn't drive nails all the way through the insole and then cover them up with a sock liner the way most other GY-welted manufacturers do.  I had read that the serrated nails being driven up through the bottom of the sole were intended to catch in that fiber piece to provide grip (the way a toggle bolt works in dry-wall).  I spotted a pair of old AE's that I picked up for a couple of bucks at a thrift shop recently that I wanted to dissect for my own learning purposes, and see if the nails are actually gripping it. 

Times change and so does the language but my impression is that "heel tucks" are used inside the shoe...under the heel pad. You are correct that they are used to secure the heel stack but they don't usually function as a shank. The ones I'm familiar with aren't stiff enough or long enough. But they could be the source of discomfort. (No, I take that back...I seem to remember seeing shoes, loafers in particular, that had an insole comprised of a fiber heel and shank area and a paperboard forepart.)

That said, women's fashion shoes use something similar between the outsole/ heel block and the insole which does function as a shank of sorts. (Women's fashion shoes are not my area of expertise...I've repaired them but I have zero interest in them.) so it wouldn surprise me if the same material or something similar was being used in the manufacture of low heeled men's shoes.

The reason the "heel tucks" I'm familiar with are used is that on this quality of shoe, fiberboard insoles are the rule rather than the exception. And fiberboard or leatherboard insoles are not stout or dense enough to hold the nails. Since the nails are driven into the heel stack...which itself is usually made of fiberboard...from the interior of the shoe, the heads of the nails would, given the stresses that the heels are subject to, pull right through the insole without the tuck.

--
Edited by DWFII - 6/27/14 at 6:20am
post #9913 of 11910

I may have asked this before, but if I have, put it down to old age. In all my shoes, bar one, I have to use arch supports. Does anyone else have this problem? Ironically, the pair that don't need an arch support are the cheapest and most comfortable.

 

None of it seems to be down to shoe size. I don't remember this being a problem when I was younger and buying 'disposable' shoes - or perhaps I just didn't notice it. 

post #9914 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Two things...First, those toe plates are not inset (you knew that), and were not really meant to be, so some of what I said doesn't apply. The need to cut away or thin the outsole, for instance, and the possible damage that would be done to the stitching, doesn't apply. However, it is clear from your photo that had you tried to inset the toe plate, the stitching would have been seriously compromised/damaged.

Second, the inseam is always further away from the edge than the outseam...You can't see it now but I have even money that if the screws holding your toe plate on are longer than 3-4mm, they are right in the inseam--cutting fibers in the threads that comprise the inseam. I doubt that the insole on that pair of shoes is very thick (maybe not even leather) and the shoe is almost certainly GY, which "features" a deep cork footbed, so possibly the damage is slight.

You did a good job, BTW... but it was my impression that the question was about inset (or "flush") toe plates. Aside from the fact that toe plates like you used tend to get worn and develop sharp edges that catch on, and cut, carpets...and the fact that they make you sound like a dray horse coming down the lane, or an M43A Sherman breaking through the hedgerows, or someone seriously in search of a fanfare lol8[1].gif ...they're pretty benign, IMO.

--

yes i thought i mentioned they are not inset!!  btw the screws  are 3mm long with big "wings" around the axle(from computer electronics) and thats why i choose them!! they dont pass through the outsole and for 1year and 2 months now they hold tight in place!!

 

in fact they dont sound so much in normal walk(hahahaha)  cause they just touch the floor when my foot is ready to lift from the ground!

 

the shoes are made using  a variation of blake stitching (i dont remember exactly how he described it, the friend of mine who made them as a gift) and they have a leather insole!!(he used a design from a company he was working modifying the last to my measurements)! i think i didnt damaged anything but till the shoes ll go for a resole i cant be 100% sure! i am 99,9% hahahahah

 

thanks for the kind words on the job i did ,especially from a  pro!! i think for not a professional i took all the measurements i could!

post #9915 of 11910
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post

yes i thought i mentioned they are not inset!!  btw the screws  are 3mm long with big "wings" around the axle(from computer electronics) and thats why i choose them!! they dont pass through the outsole and for 1year and 2 months now they hold tight in place!!

in fact they dont sound so much in normal walk(hahahaha)  cause they just touch the floor when my foot is ready to lift from the ground!

the shoes are made using  a variation of blake stitching (i dont remember exactly how he described it, the friend of mine who made them as a gift) and they have a leather insole!!(he used a design from a company he was working modifying the last to my measurements)! i think i didnt damaged anything but till the shoes ll go for a resole i cant be 100% sure! i am 99,9% hahahahah

thanks for the kind words on the job i did ,especially from a  pro!! i think for not a professional i took all the measurements i could!

Blake...of course. No problems with the inseam then--no inseam.

A thought: if they've been in place for over a year and aren't more worn than they appear in the photo, don't make much noise, the truth is that you probably don't need them. Maybe you just want them but it's clear you are not striking/using them in normal walking/gait.
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