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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 658

post #9856 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungleroller View Post

I'm gonna try to change gears here.

What do you guys do for the edges where you want to maintain the "layered" look if you will. I've used regular carnuba polish on them for protection and that seems fine. Just wanted to see if there's another better method or product out there.



I want to maintain the layer differentiation but still protect them.

i personally  use a combination of dubbin and neutral carnuba wax paste polish! waterproofing -preventing dryness and cracks at my opinion!

post #9857 of 11256
Hydroplaning does not apply in relation to shoes. It is a dynamic event where a fast moving object skims across the surface of the water, not making contact with the solid surface beneath. It can only occur where the object is already moving. Unless you're wearing your shoes for water skiing, it isn't going to happen. You are not going to slip because of your shoe hydroplaning. Water beneath you sole may provide some lubrication, but will not cause hydroplaning.

 

Tread will help with grip in snow and ice, in mud, or or on wet grass, but on a surface like concrete or stone it really comes down to material characteristics and surface area. Quality road bicycle tyres are often slick, but can be ridden in wet conditions. Some have a fine tread, but this is basically marketing, to allay the fears of those who don't 'trust' slick tyres. The tread doesn't improve the grip and I would rather ride on slicks as the tread detracts from the ride quality. Rock climbing shoes which test the grip of footwear to the limit have smooth soles.

 

The main argument for Topys as far as I'm concerned is wear. I agree that leather soles can wear well when worn on concrete, even in the wet. I've had some that have lasted a year with almost daily wear, walking 10km+ a day.  We don't always have the option of walking on a surface as kind to your shoes as smooth concrete. Around my way the predominant paving material is rough asphalt, often eroded over decades, exposing the sharp stones in it. It's like walking on a cheese grater, and can destroy leather soles in short order. For this reason for shoes for day to day use I choose rubber soles where available. If rubber soles are not available, then I am looking at accepting disgrace and putting Topys on leather soles. It would be nice to wear leather soles, but they are not practical in this environment.

 

DWFII, you mentioned earlier that Topys can be worn past the point of no return. Is this continuing to wear them after a hole or soft spot is first apparent, or does it happen before this? If earlier, how would you tell, please?

post #9858 of 11256
50/50 mix? Any brand recs? @benhour
post #9859 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post

firstly  i didnt want to replay again cause i think the thing gone toooooooooo far and there is none useful information any more!!i really respect and admire your shoemaking skills ,but pls dont take parts from replies  and comment on that and not on the hole response!!

when i said about slick Tyre's i knew exactly what i said and why i said it but probably you didnt understand what i was saying!!! so lets be a little more clear on that!!

i said that like the slick Tyre's exactly for the same reason(aquaplaning) the flat leather soles are slippery!!! they are even more slippery than  flat rubber cause of the microstracture of the leather that traps water in its fibers making it even more slippery(like the mauld on the rocks in the river)!! a thing that rubber is not doing !!

secondly i never mentioned flat rubber i mentioned topy(it's not flat) and regarding to a normal rotation (3-5 pairs) it wont be flat for a year or so!!i think you and nick can be more informative on that!

i dont like topy for my reason mostly aesthetic but the company that makes it i am sure has made a lot of test before launching it into market and wont invest money on something useless!!

I don't want to rehash this either but since, despite your disclaimer, you brought it back up...It's worth noting that in another field--fly fishing--the controversy is just as rampant.

For years and years fly fishermen have used felt soled boots to prevent slipping on smooth and slime covered rock. Felt is like leather in that they are both fiber mats. That said, it's not a perfect solution for sure.

Recently it was shown that bacterial infection might be picked up by felt and transferred to other watersheds. So a rubber soled wading shoe was developed...by vibram if I'm not mistaken although by this time there may be other players...and laws passed in many states--Alaska foremost among them--to ban felt.

Almost universally the vibram soles are despised and distrusted by anglers wading dangerous rivers esp if not equipped with aluminum or carbide studs. And with carbide a slick bedrock shelf becomes even more of a roller rink, with the angler placing his life in real jeopardy. But the vibram soles, despite being specially and "cleverly" treaded, are not much better without the studs, either.

I don't know of anyone who can be said to have lost their life due to vibram wading shoes but drowning deaths are seldom, if ever, attributed to wading shoes or equipment. Usually it's because the angler "hit his head on a rock" or got "tangled in a snag." It begs the questions, however, whether the fisherman would have been "in the water" to begin with if he'd been able to hold his feet.

Almost every angler I talk to on fishing forums who has had both rubber and felt wading boots prefers the felt and is fearful of having to wade with vibram...studs or no.

Like the business with rubber tires...even All Terrain or All Climate tires...there's a lesson to be learned here that strikes me as bit more significant or relevant than "convenience."

--
Edited by DWFII - 6/25/14 at 5:00pm
post #9860 of 11256
post #9861 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger la Rock View Post


DWFII, you mentioned earlier that Topys can be worn past the point of no return. Is this continuing to wear them after a hole or soft spot is first apparent, or does it happen before this? If earlier, how would you tell, please?

First, understand that to properly mount a pair of Topy you have to take a perfectly good leather outsole --one that you chose to buy and presumably paid a premium for--and remove the wax and/or dye as well as break the dense grain surface. This to prepare the leather to accept the cement. A grinder using 30, 40 or perhaps 50 grit carborundum paper is typically used to do this job. Theoretically the rougher the surface, the better the adhesion.

So, the outsole is intentionally damaged and, in the absence of some sort of leveling device that relieves the workman of the need to use his best guess, likely damaged more in some areas than others.

Both the leather and the Topy are then painted with a strong solvent based neoprene contact cement and allowed to dry/cure--preferably overnight. Reactivating the cement with heat is considered the best method to insure a strong bond and then the Topy is applied to the leather sole and hammered or pressed. Any heat applied to the Topy from that point on...such as when the edge is trimmed and sanded smooth...will reactivate the cement and weaken the bond. That's why Topy often comes away from the edge, esp. at the toe, before or almost simultaneously with getting a hole worn in it.

When the Topy wears down to the point that there's a hole in it or it gets so thin along the edges that the bond is broken, dirt and greases get underneath the Topy and work their way into the exposed leather.

To prepare the outsole for a resoling with Topy, that dirt (along with the worn Topy itself) has to be removed. The more pristine the leather is at the end of this prep work the better the bond will be. This is particularly critical at the edges. But the edges are also where the stitching, if there is any, is located. So the repairman grinds away the dirt along the edges...and perhaps inadvertently cuts the stitching...or in the center where there was a hole in the Topy. And the outsole becomes even more uneven and unstable. Sometimes a particularly zealous repairman confronted with a particularly ill-used shoe will combine to create an outsole that is one or two millimeters thick in some places and perhaps as much as three times that thickness in others.

For anyone who knows anything about shoes or studies the foot and fit, such a situation is not considered healthy.

Now, I'm sure someone will come along to challenge this chain of events but I'm from Missouri I'd have to see it or have it explained to me how any other method would work given the laws of nature and logic and the world/reality we live in.
post #9862 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Yes really!!
It's not just me, anybody that has a different point of view, you to try to belittle, often making yourself look like a fool.

Because I can prove why I disagree with you, you consider it a challenge. Even though you interpret it that way that's not my intent.
That's what part of this forum is about sharing ideas, knowledge and, experience.

Show me where I "openly disputed the fact that you make shoes".
I don't believe you. I have confidence in myself. Then again, this is a public forum, if you can prove me wrong, I'll look pretty bad.

As for the rest of your comments......Same ole hogwash and bull shit. Including you're predictable blowing you're own horn.

I could care less.....


Sad, but entirely true.  As ever Nick, your input is appreciated in making an effort to set the record straight.  Such input is very much needed. 

post #9863 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


From my experience the useful purpose and intent of sole guards outlasts a leather sole (generally) 2 to 1. Sometimes more.
It stands to reason if they if they didn't wear well....1. I would not offer them and, 2. I would get complaints about unacceptable wear.
We do 40 to 60 pair a week. I never heard of such a complaint.

 

I bet you also don't get complaints about Topys ruining the shoes or your cutomers' feet, either.

post #9864 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsgleason View Post

Both left and right and namely on the inside edge. I'm pronated which probably amplified the effect. The worst offenders are my most worn Allen Edmond's which are brown park avenues with single leather soles.

I have Aldens that I've worn more that have no discernible feeling of difference between the heel stack and the rest of the sole, buy they're all double leather as well which seems to help.

Try holding the outside of the counters with your thumb and index fingers. The bottom of the heel should be resting in the palm of your hand. With the other hand grab the outside border of the welt with your thumb and index fingers. The outside of the sole should be resting on your palm. That hand should be slightly forward of where the ball of your foot would be. Now flex the shoe (not forcefully).

Do you hear a clicking sound?
Check the seam that attaches the sole to the base. Do you see significant separation while flexing?
Last, does the heel feel somewhat flexible or rigid.

Now, do the same thing with a single leather soled shoe.
Compare the two. Was the AE significantly more flexible?

If so, it sounds like you may have either a loose heel base or, a loose (maybe broken) shank.
post #9865 of 11256

Thank you DW, very informative.

post #9866 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

I bet you also don't get complaints about Topys ruining the shoes or your cutomers' feet, either.

Yup...This is true.

However let me get back to my original point.
Sole guards are a matter of personal preference and objectives (if used as they were intended and designed for).
Nothing more nothing less.
All the rest is simply useless long-winded gibberish.
post #9867 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Yup...This is true.

However let me get back to my original point.
Sole guards are a matter of personal preference and objectives (if used as they were intended and designed for).
Nothing more nothing less.
All the rest is simply useless long-winded gibberish.

Wholeheartedly agree.  I would add, being used as they were intended and designed, in the context of the environment of the user.

post #9868 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Sole guards are a matter of personal preference and objectives (if used as they were intended and designed for).
Nothing more nothing less.

I don't disagree...I have said it quite explicitly a number of times in this thread. Of course, you and several others missed that point. Why is that?

I suspect the reason is contained in your next statement:
Quote:
All the rest is simply useless long-winded gibberish.

A number of people have commented in this thread alone how much they appreciate and value my "long winded" explanations.They are expenditures of energy and time that "give" without expectation beyond an open mind.

The fact that you don't appreciate them and that you consider them "useless gibberish" strikes me as sour grapes--a discontent borne of an intellect incapable of thinking in depth or of following any posting that's longer than 144 characters. As well as a lack of knowledge, skill, and experience with the subject at hand...despite your own discordant blowing of your horn about issues that no one has, or would think to, question.

All of which highlights another, perhaps central, reason for the antipathy and antagonism you are carrying around like a battered suitcase--you speak of having confidence in yourself.

I, too, have confidence. I have confidence that with the exception of your managerial habits, I could do every single job in your shoe repair shop and probably as well as any one in your shop. At the very least, I am confident that I could do any one of those jobs as well as any that you personally do yourself.

I'm also confident that if the roles were reversed you wouldn't have a clue even where to begin, much less the skill or ability to knock together a crude facsimile of my work.

And yet none of it is rocket science.
post #9869 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I don't disagree...I have said it quite explicitly a number of times in this thread. Of course, you and several others missed that point. Why is that?

I suspect the reason is contained in your next statement:


A number of people have commented in this thread alone how much they appreciate and value my "long winded" explanations.They are expenditures of energy and time that "give" without expectation beyond an open mind.

The fact that you don't appreciate them and that you consider them "useless gibberish" strikes me as sour grapes--a discontent borne of an intellect incapable of thinking in depth or of following any posting that's longer than 144 characters. As well as a lack of knowledge, skill, and experience with the subject at hand...despite your own discordant blowing of your horn about issues that no one has, or would think to, question.

All of which highlights another, perhaps central, reason for the antipathy and antagonism you are carrying around like a battered suitcase--you speak of having confidence in yourself.

I, too, have confidence. I have confidence that with the exception of your managerial habits, I could do every single job in your shoe repair shop and probably as well as any one in your shop. At the very least, I am confident that I could do any one of those jobs as well as any that you personally do yourself.

I'm also confident that if the roles were reversed you wouldn't have a clue even where to begin, much less the skill or ability to knock together a crude facsimile of my work.

And yet none of it is rocket science.

Sour grapes right term wrong guy. It's you not me.
Show us where I said that you didn't make shoes.
Show us the facts where sole guards ruin shoes. I don't mean as a result of an inept faulty cobbler or a customer that did not use the product for it's intended purpose (unknowingly). There are lot's of things that we disagreed with and I asked you to prove. You didn't because you couldn't.
I happily accept that you no more about making shoes/boots than me. When it comes to repairs, you don't.
And the fact that you cherry-pick a lot that I write and ignore the stuff you can't answer hiding behind your long-winded diatribes tells me you can't answer.
Yes, you write better than me...hip-hip horaaaay!!!!!! Big freaking deal. You use THAT as a tool to win a dispute?
As someone who knows my business your nothing but a self-centered, phony, wind-bag.
post #9870 of 11256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Yup...This is true.

However let me get back to my original point.
Sole guards are a matter of personal preference and objectives (if used as they were intended and designed for).
Nothing more nothing less.
All the rest is simply useless long-winded gibberish.

Absolutely agree.
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