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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 555

post #8311 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirling View Post


Despite owning such an arsenal of stripping products you say you see no need for their use at all in shoe care, ever. I wonder then what prompted you to own and use these products?

Also my original post queried your questionable statement on renovateur which I notice you have not been able to defend.

There is a lot of excellent advice and sharing of experience in this thread, I am merely trying to ensure that continues without exaggerated statements and poor opinions with no basis in fact. I hope you understand.

 

I have experimented with both stripping away shoes finish, dying shoes, and creating patina.  All of which requires strong deglazing agents.  None of them were used for 'shoe care'.

 

The only exaggerated and outlandish recommendation is to use such strong deglazing agents on a regular basis or even on a brand new pair of shoes to 'care' for them.

post #8312 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post



The only exaggerated and outlandish recommendation is to use such strong deglazing agents on a regular basis or even on a brand new pair of shoes to 'care' for them.

Totally Agree on the absurd idea of use on brand new shoes.

But overall I do feel your comments are exaggerated and incorrect, especially in relation to renovateur.
post #8313 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirling View Post

Totally Agree on the absurd idea of use on brand new shoes.

But overall I do feel your comments are exaggerated and incorrect, especially in relation to renovateur.

Renovateur is a cleaner and conditioner combined. Shines up nicely if there're existing wax and finishes but leaves a slightly dry surface compare to bick4 or Lexol. I now mainly uses it to clean water stains and maintain mirror shine toe caps, both of which it does well as a mild cleaner. YMMV.

I've heard recommendations from respected shoemakers to use only shoe cream for maintenance and wax for shine. Their recommendations are in conflict with both forum groupthink or forum venders vested interests.
post #8314 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Renovateur is a cleaner and conditioner combined. Shines up nicely if there're existing wax and finishes but leaves a slightly dry surface compare to bick4 or Lexol. I now mainly uses it to clean water stains and maintain mirror shine toe caps, both of which it does well as a mild cleaner. YMMV.

Well to be fair your actual post compared renovateur to shoe cream, not other conditioners, so clearly you need to think about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

I've heard recommendations from respected shoemakers to use only shoe cream for maintenance and wax for shine.

We'll if that's the case it means these shoemakers don't regard any of the conditioners like renovateur, bick4 and lexol as useful. We KNOW that isn't correct, conditioning is req'd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Their recommendations are in conflict with both forum groupthink or forum venders vested interests.

No I quite possibly think this is your misunderstanding of what they have said to you and your dislike of one particular brand.
post #8315 of 19072
The fact is I have never been a great fan of a whole lot of products but that doesn't mean that I should rubbish them. Equally I am not impressed by the fan boys that overly hype and exaggerate the benefits of one product over all others.

This thread is full of thousands of examples where posters have repeatedly hyped products like renovateur above and beyond what it deserved in my opinion.

Recently a very small number of posters have decided to go the other way and suggest renovateur does more damage than good, maybe it's more cleaner than conditioner blah blah blah.

Fact is it's a decent product and does what it says on the jar. If you are silly enough to over use it, your leather will suffer. Products like lexol and bick4 (I like bick4) are a little more forgiving in this regard, but nonetheless overuse is certainly not favourable to leather.

I hope Gents we can find some balance on this issue now, we all know that conditioning is necessary for our leather products, we know the products out there and we should have the common sense to use them appropriately ie it's better to condition your shoes sparingly when they need it and not by way of course.
post #8316 of 19072

I think there is a whole lot of nitpicking going on lately which frankly is quite unnecessary. Just to clarify I use lexol leather cleaner instead of renomat as I think it's less harsh on the leather, and yes I have tried both, but I do agree that polish and wax build up must be removed maybe once a year (obviously varies depending on how much you use/polish them). As for conditioners I tend to vary between lexol and renovateur, I think both has its merits and I use them for different purposes. 

post #8317 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirling View Post

Well to be fair your actual post compared renovateur to shoe cream, not other conditioners, so clearly you need to think about that.
We'll if that's the case it means these shoemakers don't regard any of the conditioners like renovateur, bick4 and lexol as useful. We KNOW that isn't correct, conditioning is req'd.
No I quite possibly think this is your misunderstanding of what they have said to you and your dislike of one particular brand.

Stop trolling. Do not speak on my behalf.

Yes they did advise against using any conditioners besides shoe cream.

It's okay to reject others opinion but making baseless slander is rude and unnecessary.
post #8318 of 19072
In the first place, when we talk about shoes and shoe care we have to understand that fundamentally we are talking about leather. Caring for the shoe is a question of caring for leather. The shoe as an object...or as a goal of any kind of maintenance...is almost incidental.

What do you want a conditioner to do? And what do you want it not to do?

A conditioner should not:
1) leave a greasy or sticky residue

2) dissolve or remove resident fats and conditioners

3) remove waxes or finishes.

4) stain or darken the leather

5) suffocate the leather

Can we agree on that?

Every conditioner that contains petroleum based oils, or large-globual fats, even if they are natural fats, will violate 1, 4, and 5 of the "should nots".

Every conditioner that contains volatile solvents will be characterized by 2 and 3. If a chemical will remove waxes, 90% of the time it will...sooner or later... remove some or all of the finish.

A conditioner should:
1) renew the leather--moisturize, plump up and lubricate the fiber mat. Period.

The purpose of a conditioner is not to create a shine or to renew a shine. A shine on a shoe is not necessarily good for leather. It is glitz, pure and simple. Waxes to waterproof or protect leather are useful and good when used sparingly. They don't have to shine to do their work.

To the extent that a product purports to do more than condition the leather, there are, almost certainly, chemicals or components that are working at cross-purposes to each other and, more often than not, at cross-purposes to the health of the leather.
post #8319 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Stop trolling. Do not speak on my behalf.

Yes they did advise against using any conditioners besides shoe cream.

It's okay to reject others opinion but making baseless slander is rude and unnecessary.

I am not trolling, you need to read what you are writing before accusing me. Look up what slander means.
post #8320 of 19072
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

In the first place, when we talk about shoes and shoe care we have to understand that fundamentally we are talking about leather. Caring for the shoe is a question of caring for leather. The shoe as an object...or as a goal of any kind of maintenance...is almost incidental.

What do you want a conditioner to do? And what do you want it not to do?

A conditioner should not:
1) leave a greasy or sticky residue

2) dissolve or remove resident fats and conditioners

3) remove waxes or finishes.

4) stain or darken the leather

5) suffocate the leather

Can we agree on that?

Every conditioner that contains petroleum based oils, or large-globual fats, even if they are natural fats, will violate 1, 4, and 5 of the "should nots".

Every conditioner that contains volatile solvents will be characterized by 2 and 3. If a chemical will remove waxes, 90% of the time it will...sooner or later... remove some or all of the finish.

A conditioner should:
1) renew the leather--moisturize, plump up and lubricate the fiber mat. Period.

The purpose of a conditioner is not to create a shine or to renew a shine. A shine on a shoe is not necessarily good for leather. It is glitz, pure and simple. Waxes to waterproof or protect leather are useful and good when used sparingly. They don't have to shine to do their work.

To the extent that a product purports to do more than condition the leather, there are, almost certainly, chemicals or components that are working at cross-purposes to each other and, more often than not, at cross-purposes to the health of the leather.


I agree with 1,2 & 5 but in the real world 3 and 4 are going to happen to a degree due to the interaction of a conditioner with the leather and all it's inherent properties.

Whilst the purpose of a conditioner is not to create a shine nor is it mutually exclusive.
post #8321 of 19072

DWF, thank you for your steady hand on the tiller and for your wise words. Others would do well to read them. Chogall is also a long-time member of this thread and I have also learned much from him in the past. Best to get back to shoes and turn the heat down a little, perhaps. 

post #8322 of 19072
We'll apparently I am a troll, nitpicking and not discussing shoe care and since others are long term members my opinions are of diminished value.

Very we'll gents good day to you too.
post #8323 of 19072
Stirling, I don't think you're a troll and I understand that you work in the leather industry in some respect. That said, you have great knowledge few of us have here. I think the backlash that you got isn't as much about your experience or opinions, but rather your delivery and attack on others. Let's look at what you initially said: "Pretty bold statements there. Do you have any experience of the aforementioned products or do you just enjoy making outlandish posts?"

How do you expect people to react to that? Either that's your intention, which is fine, but fact is, it is kind of douchey. That isn't even arguable. I think somebody with your experience (which is few and far between here) could be used to teach and instruct rather than "troll". If something was said that isn't correct in your experience correct and offer other insight rather than poking at the hornet's nest with such quips.

I think I remember you saying you use Nivea after shave balm on leather when it needs conditioning. Not sure if that was in jest, but I'm curious to hear more about it.
post #8324 of 19072

^ well said.

post #8325 of 19072
The shoe care wars continue I see. Debate without rudeness would make this thread so much nicer.
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