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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 544

post #8146 of 11406

Anrobit,

Yes, both my pairs of (wet weather) Doc Marten's shoes are goodyear welted.

 

Patrick,

Despite your reservations, DM's Wonder Balsam is very good on toast with a little Gentleman'r Relish. Not to everyone's taste, perhaps. 

post #8147 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post

Anrobit,
Yes, both my pairs of (wet weather) Doc Marten's shoes are goodyear welted.

Patrick,
Despite your reservations, DM's Wonder Balsam is very good on toast with a little Gentleman'r Relish. Not to everyone's taste, perhaps. 

But have you tried GK on Rosemary flatbread? Or for a little more proletarian cuisine, on Tostitos Lime and Chili chips?

Mmmm, mmm, all time favorite...tastes like more.
post #8148 of 11406
hi SF
just found a burn on the cap of my c&j
i believe its from the ash of cigarettes.

are there any ways to treat it and take away the burnt marks?

thanks in advance!
post #8149 of 11406

You should all be grateful that you can eat jars of GlenKaren. Here, across the pond, we can't get it - even to clean our shoes with.  :(

post #8150 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I'm not saying you can't. I do that all the time--follow the conversation where-ever it goes. Sometimes it's even me...riffing off something someone else said...that gets off track or off topic.

But this issue, here, has become focused on brands and which team people are rooting for rather than dealing with the objective facts. That kind of discussion is never gonna be productive if only because linear thinking isn't an attribute held in much regard here. It's all about emotions in most of these threads...from the "wow factor," to the devotion and defensiveness people who've invested thousand of dollars associate with their choices, to the obsequiousness of group-think.

I suspect that rather than deal with the objective facts and the logic that was being discussed, some folks felt more comfortable making the brand name / maker an issue. It just seems like an excuse for histrionics rather than rational discussion.

IMO...

 

 

Okay, misunderstood you then. But to be honest, I'm not sure I understand this reply either. I think my comment was rather rational. And I was in fact "writing down" a brand I love and have spent a lot of money on, quite the opposite to what you are implying. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post
 

You should all be grateful that you can eat jars of GlenKaren. Here, across the pond, we can't get it - even to clean our shoes with.  :(

 

You can! The Swedish webshop Skolyx stocks all GlenKaren products since recently. The shipping is flat rate 16 euro to all EU countries (free to Sweden, €11 to Denmark and Finland), which is similar to Quality-Shop and cheaper than Valmour, if we compare to some popular Saphir stockists in EU.

post #8151 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgr33n View Post

hi SF
just found a burn on the cap of my c&j
i believe its from the ash of cigarettes.

are there any ways to treat it and take away the burnt marks?

thanks in advance!

Could be, I suppose...although I don't see any charring.

Sometimes pits can be found in hides from parasites such as warble flies or even from improper dehairing. Unfortunately damage from parasites generally occurs on or near the backbone--prime leather in most cases.

Tanneries / curriers can fill such pits with an acrylic top coat; shoemakers can fill pits with repair crayons. Both solutions are temporary...or at least unreliable.

To fix it you could try to fill it with a similar colour of cream wax or even look for a repair crayon from woodworking sources (I've heard this works but I've never tried it myself). Once the pit is filled it will probably stay filled as the toe stiff area does not flex much if at all. Just some ideas...
post #8152 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


Okay, misunderstood you then. But to be honest, I'm not sure I understand this reply either. I think my comment was rather rational. And I was in fact "writing down" a brand I love and have spent a lot of money on, quite the opposite to what you are implying. 

I'm not implying anything...particularly about you. But it's not just you and me in this discussion, either. And I've seen a lots of misdirection and evasion coming from other quarters.

Beyond that why compare one maker...in eastern Europe, to other makers in the UK? The implication is that somehow the big name RTW makers in the UK are the gold standard. There's almost an automatic assumption that the UK RTW makers will be better despite using objectively and widely acknowledged, inferior methods.

Vass is a very good maker and whatever their organizational flaws, all things being equal, represent one of the best values to be had in RTW footwear. Better than many other, big name makers / manufacturers.
post #8153 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

 

 

Okay, misunderstood you then. But to be honest, I'm not sure I understand this reply either. I think my comment was rather rational. And I was in fact "writing down" a brand I love and have spent a lot of money on, quite the opposite to what you are implying. 

 



Agree completely. And I certainly didn't see anyone excusing / defending the shaggy suede Vass shoe out of emotional brand-loyalty or otherwise. Did you?
Edited by RogerP - 2/21/14 at 8:36am
post #8154 of 11406

J.ingevaldsson,

Thank you very much for that link to a European supplier of GlenKarn products! It does work out at more than £30 for two jars, though, so I will have to think about it. Also, I have lots of different jars and tubes of Saphir products and I may have to use those up first! Thanks, again, for the link.

post #8155 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I'm not implying anything...particularly about you. But it's not just you and me in this discussion, either. And I've seen a lots of misdirection and evasion coming from other quarters.

Beyond that why compare one maker...in eastern Europe, to other makers in the UK? The implication is that somehow the big name RTW makers in the UK are the gold standard. There's almost an automatic assumption that the UK RTW makers will be better despite using objectively and widely acknowledged, inferior methods.

Vass is a very good maker and whatever their organizational flaws, all things being equal, represent one of the best values to be had in RTW footwear. Better than many other, big name makers / manufacturers.

 

Okay, of course I was thinking that you was talking about me, since it was my comment you replied on in the first place.

 

And regarding the comparison to the UK makers, I was comparing the leather quality, and used two well known examples, in this case Edward Green and Gaziano & Girling, since my experience is that they have a bit better leather quality than Vass, when it comes to which pieces of the hides being used. But then I was saying that I think that Vass offers impressive quality shoes, being hand welted, instead of Goodyear to almost half the price to the Goodyear RTW-makers considered top of the line. Here it is again:

 

Quote:

...I do think that they are using a larger part of the hides than for example Edward Green or Gaziano & Girling. [...] I do think that Vass still offers the best value of shoes out there, I mean they are completely hand made but are still half the price or less than the Goodyear welted top RTW-makers, but on that part they are not quite as good as the very best.

 

So I think we completely agree on this subject.

post #8156 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post
 

 

 

Okay, misunderstood you then. But to be honest, I'm not sure I understand this reply either. I think my comment was rather rational. And I was in fact "writing down" a brand I love and have spent a lot of money on, quite the opposite to what you are implying. 

 



Agree completely. And I certainly didn't see anyone excusing / defending the shaggy suede Vass shoe out of emotional brand-loyalty or otherwise. Did you?

 

Nope.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post
 

J.ingevaldsson,

Thank you very much for that link to a European supplier of GlenKarn products! It does work out at more than £30 for two jars, though, so I will have to think about it. Also, I have lots of different jars and tubes of Saphir products and I may have to use those up first! Thanks, again, for the link.

 

Your welcome!

post #8157 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

Okay, of course I was thinking that you was talking about me, since it was my comment you replied on in the first place.

And regarding the comparison to the UK makers, I was comparing the leather quality, and used two well known examples, in this case Edward Green and Gaziano & Girling, since my experience is that they have a bit better leather quality than Vass, when it comes to which pieces of the hides being used. But then I was saying that I think that Vass offers impressive quality shoes, being hand welted, instead of Goodyear to almost half the price to the Goodyear RTW-makers considered top of the line. Here it is again:


So I think we completely agree on this subject.

I know what you said...why did you choose the two makers you mention to illustrate your point? Do you have any factual, objective knowledge that they have a "bit better quality leather"?

I suspect...but more than suspect, I know....that once you get above a certain price point, there's not much difference in the quality of the leathers being used esp. they all have access to the same animals and the same tanners. Most of the difference comes down to finish and there's not much discernible difference in finish on a suede, is there?

Every hide has a limited amount of prime leather...what is it? roughly 16%?...something like that. But every company pays for 100%. My experience is that the "two well known examples" would actually be less fastidious about where they cut their pieces than a smaller workshop. Large companies always maximize the utilization of raw materials as a matter of fundamental business philosophy.

So, again, why the assumption that the "well known" companies will "have a bit better leather quality"? Or implicitly, that they should be some sort of standard by which to measure other makers? Everything points to the just the opposite--a small workshop, intimate, personal, using superior methods of construction will result in a better product...almost every time. If only because they have to answer to the individual customer rather than a board of directors only interested in profit margins.
post #8158 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I know what you said...why did you choose the two makers you mention to illustrate your point? Do you have any factual, objective knowledge that they have a "bit better quality leather"?

I suspect...but more than suspect, I know....that once you get above a certain price point, there's not much difference in the quality of the leathers being used esp. they all have access to the same animals and the same tanners. Most of the difference comes down to finish and there's not much discernible difference in finish on a suede, is there?

Every hide has a limited amount of prime leather...what is it? roughly 16%?...something like that. But every company pays for 100%. My experience is that the "two well known examples" would actually be less fastidious about where they cut their pieces than a smaller workshop. Large companies always maximize the utilization of raw materials as a matter of fundamental business philosophy.

So, again, why the assumption that the "well known" companies will "have a bit better leather quality"? Or implicitly, that they should be some sort of standard by which to measure other makers? Everything points to the just the opposite--a small workshop, intimate, personal, using superior methods of construction will result in a better product...almost every time. If only because they have to answer to the individual customer rather than a board of directors only interested in profit margins.

 

Like I said, because they are well known, are sold all around the world, and many have if not owned at least seen them. Also I own shoes from them. Maybe I could have used Corthay, Paolo Scafora or Bestetti as well, but then not many have experience of those brands. And their not all Goodyear welted, which takes away my second point in the original post, so to make it easy for me I chose those two.

 

As I wrote, I only talked about my experience. I'm not saying that it's a definite fact, but that's the experience I have from the ten or so pairs of Vass that I've owned or handled, and the Edward Greens and Gaziano & Girlings I own and have handled. That the quality of the quarters, the whole upper, generally are higher on EG and G&G. I've also visited the G&G factory, and seen which parts of the hides they cut out and how much they take away for use for bespoke sample-shoes or other things. They didn't only use the "roughly 16%" you mention, of course, but much less than half.

 

I know you have a lot of first hand experience, and of course I respect your knowledge. But the experience I have, and what I learned from people working in the industry, if I generalize things, is that if it is something that the "premium shoe" factories in for example England don't cut corners in, it's the leather of the uppers. Simply because that's the most obvious part of the shoe, the thing that everyone notice and are able to compare. When it comes to heel and toe stiffeners, arch support, linings, fillings, insole quality and so on, that's where they mainly cut quality in order to maximize profit (and the fact that they Goodyear welt their shoes instead of hand welt, obviously. But that's a different thing, they are very open with the fact that they are doing that (except maybe Cleverley...)). Those things doesn't show in the same direct way.


Edited by j ingevaldsson - 2/21/14 at 10:23am
post #8159 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Could be, I suppose...although I don't see any charring.

Sometimes pits can be found in hides from parasites such as warble flies or even from improper dehairing. Unfortunately damage from parasites generally occurs on or near the backbone--prime leather in most cases.

Tanneries / curriers can fill such pits with an acrylic top coat; shoemakers can fill pits with repair crayons. Both solutions are temporary...or at least unreliable.

To fix it you could try to fill it with a similar colour of cream wax or even look for a repair crayon from woodworking sources (I've heard this works but I've never tried it myself). Once the pit is filled it will probably stay filled as the toe stiff area does not flex much if at all. Just some ideas...
Perhaps also that Saphir repair cream?
post #8160 of 11406
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


I know you have a lot of experience, and of course I respect your knowledge. But the experience I have, and what I learned from people working in the industry, if I generalize things, is that if it is something that the "premium shoe" factories in for example England don't cut corners in, it's the leather of the uppers. Simply because that's the most obvious part of the shoe, the thing that everyone notice and are able to compare. When it comes to heel and toe stiffeners, arch support, linings, fillings, insole quality and so on, that's where they mainly cut quality in order to maximize profit (and the fact that they Goodyear welt their shoes instead of hand welt, obviously. But that's a different thing, they are very open with the fact that they are doing that (except maybe Cleverley...)). Those things doesn't show in the same direct way.

I won't take this much further but I will say this...aside from my knowledge of leather and my conviction that there probably isn't a lot of difference in the "quality" of the leather being used (finish is another thing) I just don't see any sense in making these kinds of comparisons. Why not compare the Vass against Carreducker shoes? or a St. Crispin? Or a Perry Ercolino? None of it makes sense...but falling back on big name, old name, cachet brand names is assuming a lot in my book and makes even less sense.

That said, it's all beside the point--it's methods, and materials that count and nothing else when you're having a discussion of the objective merits of shoemaking philosophies. It doesn't make any difference who made the shoe that has the rough suede...the only important issue is whether it's good material or if something in the process created that "problem"...such as a mistake on the part of the clicker or QC or whatever. The names don't matter, they only confuse things.

And make judgements that are based on ignorance or superficialities palatable.

Now if you want to talk about those intangible ineffable nuances that make you a devotee / disciple...well, that's another subject...in my book.

And no, I beg to differ...it's not a separate thing. It's all of a piece. The maker that economizes (cuts corners) on the heel and toe stiffs, the methods of construction, the quality and / or thickness of the insole, is the same maker that will place the clicking dies further into the margins. You just don't see those shoes--they're sold on discount or as seconds.

PS...my experience and knowledge give me an insight that is unique and perhaps useful to others if they are willing to listen and learn but it doesn't carve my words in stone. The issues (and people) that aggravate me are not just the ones that disagree with me. They are almost always the ones that ignore those insights, dismiss facts, and logic. That never speak to real objective data that is presented to them. That never offer anything substantive or objective...outside of their own limited and narrow frames of reference...to add or rebut or confirm the propositions they are espousing.

And no I'm not referring to you. I'm just saying... you don't need to defer to my experience and knowledge, you just need to acknowledge that it is a factor and be be objective enough and willing enough to learn.

--
Edited by DWFII - 2/21/14 at 11:15am
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