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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 483

post #7231 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post
 

 

Yes, a Blake stitched shoe only has a single sole (frequently thin) stitched directly through the upper and insole.  A Blake/Rapid has a midsole that is around the thickness of a welt stitched on in the same way, and then a full outsole stitched to the midsole using a welt stitching machine.  Since the midsole is a full size sole, it contributes more to the rigidity of the shoe, whereas a welt is only around the perimeter.  Also, with the prevalence of fiberboard insoles that are used in Blake/Rapid shoes, that is a factor as well.  The leather insoles that are used in Goodyear-welting are less rigid than fiberboard ones.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Blake machine constructed shoes has insole as well. So technically a single sole isn't correct.

 

I said that they have insoles (see above).  That said, insoles don't count when you are numbering the soles.  Only outsoles count.  Single, double, triple, etc., are only numbering the outsoles. 

post #7232 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentyman View Post
 

 

Is there any technical reason they chose fiberboard over leather, or is it more just what those brands traditionally decide to pick?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Cost and availability. More cost.

 

Saving on cost of materials is the only reason I can think of.

post #7233 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by joiji View Post
 

Those cobblestones are hard to forget, we have little to nothing like that in Australia. :)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinkapur View Post

Thats so strange. I do have to commend Crat on his shoe care skills as well as location and photography skills. AMAZING!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kentyman View Post
 

I'd be worried about that incoming car...

 

I really enjoy Crat's photos as well.  I always wonder if he gets a lot of strange looks lugging his shoes around town and setting them up in public places for photography sessions.  :laugh:

post #7234 of 10126
I have been enlightened by all of this and will treat my Blake/rapid boots with more care to prolong their wear! :->>
post #7235 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by BootSpell View Post

I have been enlightened by all of this and will treat my Blake/rapid boots with more care to prolong their wear! :->>

 

I doubt you will see a shorter lifespan from them on average.

post #7236 of 10126
Honestly if the insole isn't fiberboard blake/rapid is better than goodyear welted. I mean, no gemming, all stitches. Plus it is sturdier having a midsole. Feels more like a leather holdfast than that cork filler.
post #7237 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Honestly if the insole isn't fiberboard blake/rapid is better than goodyear welted. I mean, no gemming, all stitches. Plus it is sturdier having a midsole. Feels more like a leather holdfast than that cork filler.

 

Assuming no fiberboard insole,  I personally rank them as equal, with both having pros and cons.  Some place different emphasis on those pros and cons and will arrive at a different conclusion.  If the feel of the cork filler feels inferior to the harder (by comparison) midsole, then that may be a pro for you.  It isn't a factor for me.  The stitches running through the inside of the shoe where your toes can feel them really bugs a lot of people.  Others don't care at all.  Also, the stitch that attaches the midsole is a weak chain stitch, rather than a lock stitch (by necessity).  I doubt there is any published data, but I wonder what the prevalence of gemming failure is compared to failure of the midsole stitch from friction against toes inside the shoe?

 

Also, this is just a personal stance, as I am an avid supporter of DWF's position on the overall degradation of the shoe industry, and want it's heritage, skills, and trade to be preserved.  That said, if a hand-welted shoe is considered better than a Blake/Rapid shoe for several reasons, then I don't quite see why a Goodyear-welted shoe is automatically inferior to a Blake/Rapid shoe.  I say this because neither hand-welted nor Blake/Rapid are dependent upon cement for their overall construction.  Therefore, there are obviously other factors that elevate a hand-welted shoe above a Blake/Rapid (craft and heritage aside).  I believe that those other factors still exist with Goodyear-welted shoes.  It is simply the potential for gemming failure that knocks them down a notch in the match-up.  You may or may not experience gemming failure, and even if you do, then there is a high likelihood that the original manufacturer can repair it.  Meanwhile, you are enjoying the other benefits that a hand-welted shoe offers which make it better than a Blake/Rapid (with the exception of the midsole vs. cork feel difference if that's important to you).


Edited by MoneyWellSpent - 11/6/13 at 7:26am
post #7238 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post
 

 

Assuming no fiberboard insole,  I personally rank them as equal, with both having pros and cons.  Some place different emphasis on those pros and cons and will arrive at a different conclusion.  If the feel of the cork filler feels inferior to the harder (by comparison) midsole, then that may be a pro for you.  It isn't a factor for me.  The stitches running through the inside of the shoe where your toes can feel them really bugs a lot of people.  Others don't care at all.  Also, the stitch that attaches the midsole is a weak chain stitch, rather than a lock stitch (by necessity).  I doubt there is any published data, but I wonder what the prevalence of gemming failure is compared to failure of the midsole stitch from friction against toes inside the shoe?

 

 

MWS totally agree on the hand welted shoes!!

 

 i think you have had a bad experience on blake/blake rapid shoes and you are a little subjective on your judgment!! i have shoes (blake stitched, hand welted and GY welted) and never  had any problem with them!! i cant understand how it is possible to  feel the stitching (most of my shoes are blake stitched , more because aesthetic reasons) because if it is well stitched it is submerged in the insole and at the outer part where your feet wont be in contact with if you buy the right size-width shoe!!

 

specially at the toe if the shoes arent round shaped is quite impossible to touch the stitching even if you want to!

 

btw most of the hi end-good manufacturers using blake/blake rapid stitching dont use fiber-cardboard insoles but leather ones!(just checked my shoes from curiosity and to be sure)

 

water coming in from the blake stitching if the shoes are well made is really really rare(the glue applied is filling the holes), if they are closed channel is impossible the water to come through the sole in the shoe!! even some bad weather clarks i have with blake stitching the water never came in!!

 

i asked a shoemaker-designer friend of mine about the resoling witch were the only thing i could think as a problem!! a good shoemaker-cobbler when applying a new sole in a blake stitched shoe is  taking  a nail or a leather hole maker and put it in the first hole from the previous stitching and pushing it through the new sole then he aligns the stitching head of the machine with that hole so the machine ll use the same holes(with less than a mm deviation) minimizing the damage! a blake shoe can hold about 3resoles for sure when a blake-rapid/GY welted can hold 1-2 more but i think the upper leather would have  been destroyed a lot before than that!! all this without topy or rubber applied( i am sure patrick ll kill me for this hahahaha)!

 

About the gemming of GY welted shoes i have never had a problem with it (failing or the feeling)!

post #7239 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post
 

 

MWS totally agree on the hand welted shoes!!

 

 i think you have had a bad experience on blake/blake rapid shoes and you are a little subjective on your judgment!! i have shoes (blake stitched, hand welted and GY welted) and never  had any problem with them!! i cant understand how it is possible to  feel the stitching (most of my shoes are blake stitched , more because aesthetic reasons) because if it is well stitched it is submerged in the insole and at the outer part where your feet wont be in contact with if you buy the right size-width shoe!!

 

specially at the toe if the shoes arent round shaped is quite impossible to touch the stitching even if you want to!

 

btw most of the hi end-good manufacturers using blake/blake rapid stitching dont use fiber-cardboard insoles but leather ones!(just checked my shoes from curiosity and to be sure)

 

water coming in from the blake stitching if the shoes are well made is really really rare(the glue applied is filling the holes), if they are closed channel is impossible the water to come through the sole in the shoe!! even some bad weather clarks i have with blake stitching the water never came in!!

 

i asked a shoemaker-designer friend of mine about the resoling witch were the only thing i could think as a problem!! a good shoemaker-cobbler when applying a new sole in a blake stitched shoe is  taking  a nail or a leather hole maker and put it in the first hole from the previous stitching and pushing it through the new sole then he aligns the stitching head of the machine with that hole so the machine ll use the same holes(with less than a mm deviation) minimizing the damage! a blake shoe can hold about 3resoles for sure when a blake-rapid/GY welted can hold 1-2 more but i think the upper leather would have  been destroyed a lot before than that!! all this without topy or rubber applied( i am sure patrick ll kill me for this hahahaha)!

 

About the gemming of GY welted shoes i have never had a problem with it (failing or the feeling)!

 

Thanks for your comments.  Don't take my comments from above more strongly than I intend.  I haven't ever experienced gemming failure, Blake/Rapid midsole failure, or even cement failure years ago before I got into high-end footwear.  I would wear out my cemented shoes, or the soles would crack before they ever separated because of the glue.  In other words, the shoe construction method has never been a factor in what led to the demise of a pair of shoes for me.  I've never had a pair that I said, "well if they had only been Blake/Rapid, they would have lasted longer", or "if they had only been Goodyear-welted they would have lasted longer."  When my cemented shoes from years ago were worn out, they were generally in bad enough shape throughout the shoe to just be thrown into the trash rather than repaired.  As you said, Blake/Rapid and Goodyear-welted can both be expected to go through 4-6 resolings, if the shoe doesn't die earlier for other reasons.  That's why I hold them in approximately equal regard from a durability standpoint.  The other pros and cons have to be taken into account, and some matter more than others to individual people.  I can get past the stitches being felt inside the shoe and it never prevents me from considering Blake/Rapid shoes, but yes I can feel them with my pinky toe and the side of my big toe.  However, it does drive some people crazy.  I personally find Goodyear-welted shoes to be more comfortable with the cork footbed.  I know that in some cases the cork can migrate away to a certain extent and DWF has reported seeing this many times, but in my experience, they always retain a nice comfortable foot imprint.  With Blake/Rapid shoes, this isn't as much the case since the insole (assuming it is nice leather and not fiberboard) is no thicker than the one in a Goodyear-welted shoe.  However, under the insole of a Blake/Rapid you have the hard midsole and outsole.  Thus, from a foot molding perspective, a Goodyear-welted shoe will always be better than a Blake/Rapid, because even if the cork does migrate in a few areas, you are still only experiencing the same end result of the insole against the outsole.  That's the worse case scenario.  As Patrick said, he finds the harder insole against the outsoles to be more stable, and that's great.

Hand-welted shoes with their nice fluffy insole shoulders that create a permanent footbed are a different factor altogether. :slayer: 

post #7240 of 10126

Sorry to go on. I have looked at my cemented shoes and found stitching on both the top edge and on the sole of the shoe. Is this significant or still just an attempt to cover over the cementing?  If it is, it seems a bit elaborate to stitch the sole as well as round the edge. 

post #7241 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post
 

Sorry to go on. I have looked at my cemented shoes and found stitching on both the top edge and on the sole of the shoe. Is this significant or still just an attempt to cover over the cementing?  If it is, it seems a bit elaborate to stitch the sole as well as round the edge.

 

You are right that it seems elaborate, but many manufacturers do it anyway.  I suppose they know what they're doing when it comes to their bottom line.

 

As for your shoes...  Does the stitching match up on the top and bottom?  Is it the same number of stitches per inch?  If you track where the thread enters the leather on the top, does it come out the bottom at the same place?   Is the stitching on the top the same distance from the edge as it is on the bottom?  Does the stitching go all the way to the heel breast, or does it stop sooner?  If the answer to any of these is no, then you are looking at fake stitching.

post #7242 of 10126
But does it really matter? I mean, do you like the shoes? If yes, than forget about it. If you are just trying to justify buying cheap shoes then get some spensive ones.
post #7243 of 10126
post #7244 of 10126

No, the stitching on the bottom doesn't match the stitching on the top, so I guess that meets your criterion, MoneyWellSpent.  You are right, Patrick, what matters is whether or not I like them. I do like them. I also look forward to buying more expensive ones in the future. Interestingly, though, those two pairs of cemented shoes are very comfortable and are wearing very well. I'm not sure what the moral of that is. I suspect that it is 'buy what you can afford'.

post #7245 of 10126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post
 

No, the stitching on the bottom doesn't match the stitching on the top, so I guess that meets your criterion, MoneyWellSpent.  You are right, Patrick, what matters is whether or not I like them. I do like them. I also look forward to buying more expensive ones in the future. Interestingly, though, those two pairs of cemented shoes are very comfortable and are wearing very well. I'm not sure what the moral of that is. I suspect that it is 'buy what you can afford'.

 

I agree with Patrick as well.  In answering your questions, I've never meant to imply that you shouldn't wear what you can afford and enjoy.  Hopefully you haven't taken my responses as saying otherwise.

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