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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 336

post #5026 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by joiji View Post

Ron, is this the 'leather balm' product which Saphir produces which you referred to?

http://www.valmour.com/cleaning-products/polish-lotion-saphir-medaille-dor,516

That's the mink oil version (the MDO Lotion is the same as Renovateur, but a more emulsified version), but I was referring to this:

http://www.riderbootshop.com/saphir-creme-universal-150ml/
post #5027 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Copeland View Post

 

Did you find that less is better when applying the wax each time - in order to achieve the 3-4 layers of coats?

 

On one pair of my AE dress shoes this week - I started with Saphir Renovateur, then progressed to the Saphir Polish Creme, and then started with the Saphir Wax, by lightly apply the wax so as not to create a surface that may lead to flaking.  After the first layer of wax, I shined the shoes, then returned to apply the second layer . . . and so forth.

 

When I got to the last layer - the instructions said I could start with the water application and wax to develop the mirror shine - or, I could just remain with the satin shine that is the original Allen Edmonds look out of the box.

 

David

in the 2-3 first layers i use the same amount of wax polish!! the last one is a little less  but not to mutch ''les''!!

 

btw if you dont hit your shoes somewhere or noboby step on them, with one buff with a microfiber cloth and a tiny amount of cream polish once a month you ll be more than fine!! i have made a mirror shine guide so maybe i have to uploaded here or start a new thread!!  all thoughts are more than welcome ! happy.gif

post #5028 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogwash View Post

A little while back, it seems the implication was made by "Rider" that Kirby put up the incorrect usage of Renomat on HP by suggesting its use too often in regular shoe maintenance; but assuming riderbootshop.com is Ron's, that also recommends Renomat several times a year:
http://www.riderbootshop.com/saphir-renomat/

Not sure how I can make it more clear in the description that RenoMat is suggested to be an occasional cleaner/light stripper for you. 'Few' and 'several' have very different meanings to me.
post #5029 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Wow.....I don't come around very often anymore, but got an email to check this thread out. Lot's of passionate replies going on here. Great to see....also some misinformation and questionable uses/techniques from my side, but to each his own. There really is no exact science to any of this, unfortunately. Just too many complicated factory finishes, tannages, etc., to ever offer 100% accurate advise. I will chime in with a couple of replies though:
Quote:
I have not seen any official statement of what is in Renovateur. I have seen one shoe-care site say that it contains "beeswax mink oil, hoof foot oil, and lanolin", but I don't know whether that is correct, let alone what else might be in it. If you have a MSDS, or other information on the contents of Renovateur, please post it.

Previous comment is correct.....most manufacturers will not give out the entire formula of a product. Us included. However, happy to post the msds and the product itself contains no harmful ingredients, no chemicals, no solvents and does, in fact, use real Mink Oil - we source it from farms in Finland.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
FDS-1124-RENOVATEUR HUILE DE VISON MEDAILLE D'OR-GR-V01-20050603.pdf 39k .pdf file

In our warehouse here, we distribute 7 different 'balms' (for those that don't know, in addition to all of our shoe and boot work, we are the agents and stock house for Tarrago, Saphir, MDO and La Cordonnerie Anglaise for the US....all the sellers come thru us) and the MDO Renovateur is regarded as the highest quality # we have, although it should be pointed out that is also the most greasy. Many repair shops actually consider (and buy....both for the backroom and the shelf) the regular Saphir Crème Universelle the commercially viable product mainly due to the fact that you don't have to be as concerned about applying too much (can become gummy on the upper if not used sparingly) and it dries much more quickly. This product is basically the same formula, but without mink oil and includes Jajoba Oil. That being said, the MDO Renovateur is the same product that some French museums use to condition antique leather items, bookbindings, etc......I'm pretty sure there is no connection between Renovateur and 'leather cracking' on shoes.

Regarding the everyday use of cleaner/conditioners, you can go back to my post way back in 2005 where I recommend this usage, and nothing since then has changed my opinion - and we've seen an awful lot of shoes and clients come thru my 20+ years doing this. The first person that shows me that a non-toxic, natural, gentle balm caused a finish to crack...will actually be the first person to show me this.

Finally, it should be noted that I went out of my way to suggest Lexol, as well as Renovateur, back then. Not a thing wrong with Lexol. The only thing I would point out is that, I assume since it is a synthetic, it has a tendency to not penetrate well on some finishes. Lexol is a wonderful product for both the equestrian and car interior industries - which is why they concentrate their efforts there.....working with leathers that have very light top coats/finishes. As a matter of fact, I don't even bring in the equestrian products under the Avel name here for this reason - I don't see a whole in the market to compete.

NOTE: a point that seems to constantly be missed on what I've read of this thread, is that most here think they are treating the LEATHER with products.....this is not correct - you are treating the FINISH on the leather with products in most cases.
Quote:
in that one week he has posted tauting Saphir products all over SF no less than 15 times.



either he works for them, for hangar project, or is in fact simply trolling.


I'm glad he seems to be an enthusiastic customer, but nobody works for Saphir here in the US except for my wife and I - and we don't have any need to ask people to float around message boards talking about our products. Our retailers....I would have no idea.
Quote:
Of course renomat contains voc it is intended as a wax stripper. To fault it for that is like saying you should not use wine to get intoxicated because it contains alcohol . I am not sure how Patrick Booths issues with Renovateur evolved into this Renomat witch hunt

Something tells me someone has been pushing RenoMat a little hard - it is a stripper! Like, a use sparingly, only when needed, stripper.

Now, as strippers go it's hardly the strongest out there (no repair shop would use it - it's too lightweight.....they use much more caustic stuff then RenoMat) but it is ideal for the DIY consumer market. Still, it should be used only as needed, and correctly. If you have a shoe with a spray booth finish (the vast majority are finished this way - even those who promote with clips and images of people working away earnestly with brushes and rags in their promo shoots) and you are hitting it for the first time, RenoMat will probably take that spray finish right off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VegTan View Post

Here (Consulter la fiche de sécurité) is a MSDS of Renomat, which contains 10–25% isohexane, 25–50% chlorobenzene, 2.5–10% butyl acetate, and 2.5–10% surfactant.
I don't know whether VOC decreases a water(moisture) content of leather, even if VOC decreases, the decrease would be only a temporary phenomenon and be spontaneously restored from surrounding air, because a water content of leather is determined by relative humidity. Weinheimer leder proposes a relative humidity of 60–70% for storage, but it is so high that used leathers will mold. I feel leathers need a relative humidity of 50–60%.

FIG.8 from here.
7d2ee3ab.jpg


By the way, if you need to moisturize, here is a new product, Mizuno Pro Leather Care Slime, which contains hyaluronan, non-ionic surfactant, and copolymer. While Lexol cleaner contains glycerin as a moisturizing agent, I feel hyaluronan is expensive and excessive.

2012-04-03%2012.02.34.jpg2012-04-03%2012.08.33.jpg

Hi VegTan - are you in the business? Do we know eachother? Anyway, that's not how you read a GHS MSDS, but the point is well taken. This is not stuff to mess around with haphazardly. The chart you show concerns soling bends, and is available to factories so they can determine how to store it long term. The Leather Slime we hear is very good (the seller you got the info from is our seller in Japan)....for baseball gloves, to which it is marketed. We also heard they had trouble with the FDA here so it's not available from Mizuno USA, but I know nothing for sure...only small talk. It's a useful point to make in regards to using the right products for the right purpose though.
Quote:
I am sure this anti - Saphir agenda is confusing at best and patently false at worst. Imo It defeats the purpose of this thread that is the passing of helpful info from one to another I think we would all benefit by ceasing to confuse our opinions with facts and accept them for what they are, just opinions

I actually don't read it as an anti-Saphir commentary.....I think PB has a legitimate concern and identified what he thinks is the culprit. Seems reasonable to me, even if I have a feeling the cause was something else.
Quote:
Some people like a mirror shine on their shoes. Apparently maintaining this involves applying many layers of wax. Keeping the shine apparently requires frequent repetition.

Actually, it's not so much many layers of wax as much as it is a combination of wax/water/heat. And it does require far more maintenance. For all the years I did refinishing work, I stayed away from the glow in the dark finishing requests - just aren't good for the long term. I usually suggested they contact someone else. Just an opinion.

Somewhere in this thread are some comments concerning the use of Dubbin on uppers....can't find it right now. However, I am not sure where this comes from - never heard of anyone using Dubbin on a dress calfskin upper. Not sure if it would do any harm, but also not sure what good it would do. Dubbin is for waxy calf, hot stuffed leathers, pull-ups, chromexcels, etc. Not finished calf, IMO. I have had people ask me about using it on soles, and I would be scared to death to suggest that, honestly. I know there are shops that do, but I always picture someone using too much of it and sliding down the subway steps and breaking their ass in NYC on a wet day.
Quote:
That sounds fine. For calf leathers such as G&G RTW, EG, etc, they are dyed and antiqued with weak finish so doesn't make much sense to use renovator in the beginning to change the factory finish unless its the intent.

Agreed
Quote:
I would rather trust bespoke shoemakers instead of saphir distributors...

sidenote - it's always been interesting to me to hear how little bespoke makers actually value the finishing aspect of their work. They concentrate far more on the actual pattern work and construction work/effort to define their results (does DWIII still rail against pvc holdfasts on here smile.gif ) while factories, who use more or less the same machines and processes, value the finishing room as the most expensive aspect of the production. As a stereotype.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutcracker View Post

They know you should only use their overpriced, rebadged Saphir polishes!! lol8[1].gif

We actually no longer make their branded products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Certain individual has been trolling in some venders favor. Nothing against HP, but they are never the shoe experts. Saphir was popular on this forum way longer than HP has been around.

And yes, HP's shoe care regiment is bad for most customers. Renomat is as bad as acetone or dye removers to all shoes. And renovator is a good product but its like those 2-in-1 shampoo + conditioners; a lazy man's solution. Caveat emptor.

Ehhh....don't be so hard on Kirby.....he is doing a good job taking care of customers, trying to give the best advise he can, offering different solutions. He has asked numerous times to come to my warehouse to learn more by working with his hands, and to this point I haven't found the time to host him, so I am more at fault than he is. He is working hard to build a nice site, and I think he is doing a good job. Besides, I know plenty of other people in the business who pretend to know twice as much as they actually do - and half again what they should - but are not so reserved with their comments and misguided opinions and advise to consumers.

Thanks for the post, very informative.

However everything contains chemicals, in fact everything is chemicals, perhaps you mean synthetics? And it does contain solvents, water for example is a solvent, and from the document you posted

Hand protection:
"Due to the solvents present, it is recommended that polyvinyl alcohol or nitrile rubber gloves be worn"
post #5030 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang66 View Post

Thanks for the post, very informative.

However everything contains chemicals, in fact everything is chemicals, perhaps you mean synthetics? And it does contain solvents, water for example is a solvent, and from the document you posted

Hand protection:
"Due to the solvents present, it is recommended that polyvinyl alcohol or nitrile rubber gloves be worn"

Very interesting...thanks for pointing that out! I never even looked at the hand part....as a matter of fact, I have always used my bare hands to dab it on for a quick cleaning. Melts like hand lotion, but I need to ask about that. And no, I meant to type chemicals - but I suppose I am thinking in laymans terms. I never considered water as a solvent, but I'm not a scientist. Just a shoe salesman......

For me, when it comes to msds's, the main part of interest (and regulations) is the transport section. Whenever that section say's 'safe for transport without restrictions' our minds go straight to 'nothing harmful here to worry about'.

And, our entire industry is loaded with harmful products, processes, everything......the rare items that show up without red flags, orange X's, harmful to aquatic organisms stamps, etc., etc., etc.....we scratch our heads and ask 'can it really work?'.

I will ask the chemist about that, but it could well be like the warnings everyone puts on all aerosol cans - 'must be used with proper ventilation, dispose of in approved landfill containers' for example - knowing full well that's impractical in most cases.
post #5031 of 12466
Awesome stuff, based on what Ron and Nick (offline) has said it seems that perhaps I was using too much reno. I was basically using it on the vamps every other wear. Perhaps that is my problem.

Ron, what do you feel about some people saying turpentine in these products can be damaging? Also, what is your thoughts of the Creme Universelle vs. leather lotion vs. nappa leather balm (which seems very delicate) for calf leather.

FWIW, Ron's one other other different maker are the only shoes I have that have held up... Hmmm...
Edited by patrickBOOTH - 5/8/13 at 6:26am
post #5032 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post


Well, with A/E it depends I guess. For black, creams aren't going to do much since their black calf is corrected/sanded grain - stick with black or neutral wax for that. For the brown calfskins, just a basic routine of balm every couple of wears and colored polishing with cream as needed/a couple of times a month would be great. For the brown waxy leathers that they do now, an occasional dubbin or, better, a 'greasy leather cream' would be ideal. Or just use the balm of your choice for the casuals.....you'll be 10 steps ahead of the game regardless.

 

Ron, thanks for all of your input on the late discussions regarding Saphir products.  You are a wealth of knowledge, and have been very helpful.  The above comment caught my attention.  This is the first I've heard that AE's black calf is corrected/sanded grain across the board as you seem to imply.  Generally AE's corrected/sanded grain shoes are apparent and are termed something like "polished cobbler" or some other term that spins it in a positive way.  While they do call their black Park Avenue "black custom calf," I haven't been under the impression that they are corrected grain.  In fact, I am fairly certain that the corrected grain police would be all over them if they were, given the disdain for such material around SF.  The Park Avenue is AE's "flagship" shoe, and I'd be surprised if it somehow slipped through as being made of inferior leather.  Do you have a source to back up the sweeping statement that their black calf is corrected/sanded grain? 

post #5033 of 12466

I'll add my note of thanks to Ron for his contributions.

post #5034 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Also, what is your thoughts of the Creme Universelle vs. leather lotion vs. nappa leather balm (which seems very delicate) for calf leather.
 

 

Would be interested in the answer to this as well.

post #5035 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post

Clearly suggests using a TINY bit of Renovateur, not globs of it,

wow.gif

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glob
me use glob,
me always do this,
many many time.
lt very good for it,
me use lot of it,
keep leather very good and not dry,
me think it much better with many leather type,
it a good way,
leather take it easy and good,
it never bad.
Me like saphir very very much because it very very good.
every thing very good,
me like it very very much.
Me use saphir most day,
wish it every day. frown.gif
Renovater me favorite. icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
post #5036 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post

Hi VegTan - are you in the business? Do we know eachother?

Hi. Maybe you have mistaken me for someone else...?

Quote:
The chart you show concerns soling bends, and is available to factories so they can determine how to store it long term.

Here are other leathers, which are not so different from soling bends.

http://archive.org/details/jresv38n1p119
jresv38n1p119_A1b_0004.jp2&scale=5&rotate=0
post #5037 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post

Well, with A/E it depends I guess. For black, creams aren't going to do much since their black calf is corrected/sanded grain - stick with black or neutral wax for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

Ron, thanks for all of your input on the late discussions regarding Saphir products.  You are a wealth of knowledge, and have been very helpful.  The above comment caught my attention.  This is the first I've heard that AE's black calf is corrected/sanded grain across the board as you seem to imply.  Generally AE's corrected/sanded grain shoes are apparent and are termed something like "polished cobbler" or some other term that spins it in a positive way.  While they do call their black Park Avenue "black custom calf," I haven't been under the impression that they are corrected grain.  In fact, I am fairly certain that the corrected grain police would be all over them if they were, given the disdain for such material around SF.  The Park Avenue is AE's "flagship" shoe, and I'd be surprised if it somehow slipped through as being made of inferior leather.  Do you have a source to back up the sweeping statement that their black calf is corrected/sanded grain? 

That comment immediately stuck out to me too.

Ron: If you could provide a source that would be great as this is the first I have heard of it too.
post #5038 of 12466

For what it's worth, this is a source that I had been previously aware of regarding AE's nomenclature of "Custom Calf": http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?99710-Custom-Calf.  It seems to conclude that it is just a strange use of words, though one poster does talk about it's qualities being strangely more waterproof and resistant to taking a shine.  However, this seems to be the exception to the rule, and certainly doesn't reflect my experience with their black calfskins. 

post #5039 of 12466
Corrected grain doesn't always mean inferior.
post #5040 of 12466
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Corrected grain doesn't always mean inferior.

 

You are right.  Adding something like a Scotch Grain, or something of the sort, to make a shoe more "interesting" doesn't necessarily cheapen the leather.  However, if a shoe is a smooth calfskin with no ornamentation, it is likely an indicator of an inferior leather.  Otherwise, what are they correcting for? 

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