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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 335

post #5011 of 9025
PSA:

Wingtip is having a flash sale (24 hrs.) with a good deal on Saphir:


http://wingtip.com/product/saphir/shine-kit-five-pate-de-luxe-wax-shoe-polishes-two-chamois-cloth/39007
post #5012 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmin209 View Post

PSA:

Wingtip is having a flash sale (24 hrs.) with a good deal on Saphir:


http://wingtip.com/product/saphir/shine-kit-five-pate-de-luxe-wax-shoe-polishes-two-chamois-cloth/39007

+1000 If I didnt have these colors I would buy it. Its 5 colors for the price of 2. AMAZING
post #5013 of 9025

what's interesting is that they will no longer sell Saphir after their stock is all gone. 

 

per the email i got from them recently:

 

"due to issues getting consistent shipments from our vendor, we have are discontinuing this product. Whatever Saphir products we have left are listed on our site and we are removing as we sell through them."

post #5014 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmin209 View Post

PSA:

Wingtip is having a flash sale (24 hrs.) with a good deal on Saphir:


http://wingtip.com/product/saphir/shine-kit-five-pate-de-luxe-wax-shoe-polishes-two-chamois-cloth/39007

SOLD OUT

post #5015 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by mediahound View Post

what's interesting is that they will no longer sell Saphir after their stock is all gone. 

per the email i got from them recently:

"due to issues getting consistent shipments from our vendor, we have are discontinuing this product. Whatever Saphir products we have left are listed on our site and we are removing as we sell through them."

LOL....yeah, that was the story......
post #5016 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post


LOL....yeah, that was the story......

what's the real story?

post #5017 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by mediahound View Post

what's the real story?

nothing important, really.....normal stuff. We didn't see eye to eye on how to work together is all. More on the shoe side of things where a factory let us both down and we ended up banging heads a little over it. Neither one of our faults really, but happens. I got out of working with that factory, he moved on...everyone lives happily ever after. I hope he does well in the new space - it is impressive.
post #5018 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post

Ahhh....well, like many terms in our business, the younger, more marketing savvy folks have 'co-opted' some of the true definitions.

Crust is crust - there are not various degrees of 'crust'. There are only partially finished skins, and that is probably what they are describing. I also order a calf from Annonay called 'Iron', which is semi-finished and then suitable to add handfinishing to the base color........far less work with virtually the same effect. I can get it in 4 different bases to work from. If any brand is really using calf in the crust, they would be making a big play in advertising showing all the time and effort it takes to build a finish, as it would take them longer to do that than to hand inseam the shoes themselves. Time is money, as usual.

Aniline is a chemical....a dye. It is formulated to absorb into the grain, but it's been a very long time since I have seen a fully struck thru aniline calfskin show up. At most 30% absorption I would guess.

It's also funny when customers ask, or express concern, about the ingredients in various shoe care formulations. When compared to the highly toxic and deadly chemicals and formulations for tanning and finishing leather, like aniline, shoe care products look like bottled water.

Thanks Ron for the info. Always good to hear from the leather merchants, the bespoke makers, RTW makers and distributors such as yourself.

I know for sure that G&G and EG uses partially finished crust leather therefore I don't think it's that good of an idea to go through the whole RenoMat and renovator treatment right off the back.

Haven't seen a due through aniline yet but I love aniline leather for their ability to create a patina organically.

Thanks for clearing things up and hopefully you can have Sid and Kirby putting down a bit more info regarding new shoes maintenance so we will see less problems arising from those Presidential shine process.
post #5019 of 9025

Ron, is this the 'leather balm' product which Saphir produces which you referred to?

 

http://www.valmour.com/cleaning-products/polish-lotion-saphir-medaille-dor,516

post #5020 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by laufer View Post

Speaking of crust leather. How do you guys take care of Edward Green burgundy color? What do you use? I have seen some pictures where that color can become darken or becomes lighter over time depending what polish is applied. I would prefer to maintain the factory color. Any input is appreciated.

Try Saphir's mahogany color. It is available in MDO cream and wax. Would be a good match for EG's antique burgundy color.
post #5021 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Thanks for clearing things up and hopefully you can have Sid and Kirby putting down a bit more info regarding new shoes maintenance so we will see less problems arising from those Presidential shine process.

A little while back, it seems the implication was made by "Rider" that Kirby put up the incorrect usage of Renomat on HP by suggesting its use too often in regular shoe maintenance; but assuming riderbootshop.com is Ron's, that also recommends Renomat several times a year:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider * Boot * Shop 
Product Description
Saphir Renomat is a 'first step' cleaner, remover of surface dirt, old polish stripper, etc., best used a few times a year during more heavy duty reconditioning.

http://www.riderbootshop.com/saphir-renomat/
post #5022 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsgleason View Post


I concur. Bad stuff. There's not much you can do with it.


Thank you both. This forum is nice for learning new stuff.

post #5023 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

I am NOT a leather or shoe expert, but from what I have read on the subject, I get the following combination of fact and speculation.

 
Fact: Water is an integral part of the structure of leather. If the water content drops too low, then the leather suffers permanent damage, and this can lead to cracking. Leather dries out over time, so it does need water restored to it. The rate of this drying, of course, depends on the humidity under which it is stored, and the composition of the leather.

Fact:  Most water containing conditioners also contain humectants (as far as I can tell). Fat liquoring compounds certainly contain them. These help hold the water in the leather, but eventually may leak out or break down. Once the humectant goes, the leather is less able to retain water from the atmosphere or sweat, and the leather becomes even more dry. Conditioning with something like Lexol, PROBABLY adds humectants as well as water.

Fact: Oils and waxes are a necessary part of the fat liquoring of leather, and are also needed to maintain strength and flexibility. Modern tanning methods carefully control this process and the fats are permanently bound to the leather, hence they do not need to be restored.

Speculation: It is not clear that these "modern tanning methods" apply to the traditional process used to manufacture shell cordovan. I could not find anyone who addressed this, but the methods Horween demonstrates are wholly different from what is described for the current approach. It is possible that shell undergoes modern fat liquoring, but it does not have the romantic cachet of the open vats, so they don't show it. If shell does not get fat liquored with this chemically-controlled method, then perhaps it can lose enough fat that it may need to be restored. Nick Horween is on record discouraging most attempts to do this, so it may be that shell is made differently, but still with so much wax that there is no need to add any.

Speculation: I could not find more than a casual side comment as to how long the current high tech approach to fat liquoring has been widely used. Someone suggested several decades, but that is the closest estimate I could find. If you collect vintage shoes, they may not have been made this way, and perhaps they may need the fat restored.

SPECULATION: Based on the above, I can believe that shoes treated with oils and fats, but no water containing conditioner, could dry out and crack. I could believe this might happen particularly quickly if they are stored in a low humidity environment. A heavily air conditioned room would be bad, an unconditioned space in a warm, arid part of the country would be even worse. This would not mean that the Renovateur, etc, caused the cracking, but by failing to restore water, they may have failed to prevent it.

Since I buy old, used shoes, and bring them up to my low standards to wear, I do not assume they were made with modern methods. They typically appear to have gone many years without conditioning, and seem quite dry. I use Lexol, multiple applications over several days, to restore moisture. After that, some still appear "dry" on the surface. I find that Renovateur, by adding oil, refreshes the appearance of the surface, and gives them the light sheen I seek. I don't rely on Renovateur to serve as a maintenance conditioner, since I don't think it does the job of adding water (Of course, I could be wrong about this). Lexol is also vastly cheaper. I use Venetian to add some shine to the surface if I want that, and following Nick Horween's suggestion, that is what I use on shell.

The shoe experts DWFII, Cobblestone, and Nick V have all said they are long time satisfied users of Lexol, which is a more meaningful and practical endorsement than all the pseudo science above.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe your facts are correct.

Water is not an integral part of the structure of leather, it is an integral part of skin. Part of the process of converting skin to leather is to modify the collagen structure by replacing the oxygen atoms in the hydrogen bonding with amino acids in the tanning solution (different chemicals, for different tanning processes) and keep the triple collagen helix intact. Removing water too soon in this process can damage the hydrogen bonding.

Fat liquoring is used to add lubrication between the fibril bundles to allow the leather fiber to flex. Fats are not permanently bound to leather; they are however forced into the leather fiber in an emulsified state to ensure distribution throughout the fibril bundles. If any humectant exists it would be the in the sulfur used for the sulfated oil.

The size and density of the leather fiber will affect how well it absorbs liquids, such as oil and water. Keeping in mind that leather comes from more places than just cows.

Because leather fiber absorbs and retains liquids, it not only absorbs oil, but also water (and 30 year old scotch) which makes it hydroscopic. But because it is hydroscopic the absorbed water is susceptible to evaporation; allowing the water moisture in the leather to adjust to relative humidity. This absorption/evaporation process is referred to as allowing the leather to breathe.

Conditioning a shoe is not the same as tanning, or fat liquoring, a shoe. Conditioning is done to replace any oils (that are lubricating the fibril bundles) that have been lost, (to things like cleaning, stripping, stepping in a puddle, and oxidation, to name a few). It is unlikely you will find any humectants in leather conditioners as oils are inherently hydrophobic. You are much more likely to find a humectant, like glycerin, in leather cleaner than in leather conditioner.
post #5024 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post


RenoMat on brand new shoes? What the hell would anyone need to do that for? I've heard the Dubbin on finished calfskins before, and don't know where that comes from......I need to look over some of their sites I suppose.

You don't need to use Renovateur on new shoes either......no benefit there.

I guess that's the danger of the internet - when I was young we had the downtown shop with a separate repair shop in the basement and a very busy shine stand on the street - was easy to show people who were interested how to care for their shoes. Now........

Firstly, thank you for the great information provided! Secondly if you wouldn't mind could you please outline a shoe care regiment according to you? both daily and more of a like 1 or two times a year recond, and lastly just for clarification is there any need for a conditioner besides the renovator or is that one (or similar) sufficient? 

 

Edited by dlind - 5/8/13 at 1:03am
post #5025 of 9025
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Thanks Ron for the info. Always good to hear from the leather merchants, the bespoke makers, RTW makers and distributors such as yourself.

I know for sure that G&G and EG uses partially finished crust leather therefore I don't think it's that good of an idea to go through the whole RenoMat and renovator treatment right off the back.

Haven't seen a due through aniline yet but I love aniline leather for their ability to create a patina organically.

Thanks for clearing things up and hopefully you can have Sid and Kirby putting down a bit more info regarding new shoes maintenance so we will see less problems arising from those Presidential shine process.

Surely.

Actually, the guide Sid Mashburn has on the site is perfect - with the exception of the use of Dubbin on a finished calfskin, I concur with the methods.

http://www.sidmashburn.com/shop/shoe-shine-playbook/calfskin.html

Clearly suggests using a TINY bit of Renovateur, not globs of it, and they took my recommendation regarding RenoMat as an occasional use, more heavy duty cleaning, product. I don't think I could make it more clear than that. Nowhere does it say you have to totally treat new shoes before letting them hit the pavement that I can see.
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