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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 326

post #4876 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

  

 

So leather needs to be kept at the right level of hydration. If it gets too low, the leather can be irreversibly damaged. It will get stiff, and will be prone to cracking when flexed. If shoes are stored at too low a humidity and the moisture is not restored, then stiffness and cracking would be expected.

Since I moved to Western Montana - we do not have as much humidity, partly because of the Rocky Mountain air and elevation.  Do you have web links or suggestions as to what would be best for me?  

 

To date, my shoes have not cracked - but knowing how and where to store them based on my location would be extremely helpful.

 

All my best,


David

post #4877 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Sorry to burst bubbles here, it I've been using renovateur way before hanger project ever carried it. Hanger project is in the business of selling products. I have many more years of experience using Saphir. Hanger Project doesn't.
 

Well, Patrick - if you are as old as Saphir - then yes, you will beat Kirby and Nick (at B Nelsons) with many more years - since Saphir got its first world award in 1925.  [ grin ]

 

But if you can find a more thorough web site with more detailed instructions for the care and use of the Saphir products sold in the USA - I would sure love to see it - seriously.

 

Since 1995 when the net started to become popular - there have been few sites that I have been able to locate this year where the amount of detailed information is available.  Then again, I would love to know of some others.  Without other USA web retailers offering such instructions and tutorials - Kirby and his project have probably done more for Saphir in educating the public in their quest to provide a service.  They found a need and fulfilled it . . . and there is nothing wrong about that.

 

And although Nick at B Nelsons is probably older than you and I, his website is not as informing about the product with tutorials - even though he mentioned to me on the phone last week he endorses the product, and sells it to fulfill the needs of customers.  He also has a thriving international mail in/mail out service where he uses the product to get that luster back.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Also like I said in the other thread the only other products I've used on my shoes is saphir, both cream and wax. Actually to make matters worse on my long time Lexol treated shoes, they didn't receive Saphir cream or wax until years into wearing and those are the only shoes that AREN'T cracking
.
 

This is the first post I have read where you mention you have used the other two Saphir products with the Saphir Renovateur (maybe I was blind to an earlier comment).  All of the comments I read have led me to believe that you only used Renovateur without the other products, resulting in leather cracking.  As the quote below (to Tristan) says, Renovateur is primarily a combination cleaner/conditioner, but not a polish.  I can only imagine how leather shoes would look after 2-3 year of cleaner applied to them with little polish from the same brand.

 

Now the question - and only you can answer it in your own privacy - is whether or not you did a complete changeover from the other brand, how often you maintained, how much you applied in each application, in what order, and under what time tables - all of which makes this a mute discussion now that you have added the use of the remaining products.  Let's try and get your shoes back to the luster you want.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediahound View Post

 

Hangar Project themselves recommends using Saphir Renovateur alone:

 

"We recommend for the Renovateur to be used alone as a routine maintenance product as well as between coats of cream/wax as a cleaner and conditioner"

 

http://www.hangerproject.com/closet/saphir-renovateur.html#.UYMHx5WFH6M

 

i (and i bet others) have never heard that it requires 2 or more additional Saphir products.

 

 

Tristan, you failed to click on the bottom link on the web page you cite.  The disclaimer is titled "SEE OUR GUIDE ON HOW TO USE SAPHIR RENOVATEUR", which provides more of the unabridged instructions than what you quoted.  Here is the link:

 

http://www.hangerproject.com/closet/shoe-care-guide/going-for-the-gold.html?SID=73893bee9a7e32e9d60fccf19f248800

 

And in the above link, it clearly states:

 

"We highly recommended this product for fine shoes as part of a "normal shoeshine regimen".

 
"Saphir Renovateur is both a "cleaner and a conditioner".  When used as a "base to a new polish", it helps "remove any prior polish product" that has built up in the pores of leather uppers
 
"The product is also an incredible maintenance tool "between formal polish jobs".
 
******************
As I have been following Patrick's posts - he stated in the comments I read (and I may have missed some) - that his main argument against using Saphir is "the continual use of Renovateur as a sole maintenance" product.  The above quote from Hangerproject recommends using Renovateur as part of a normal shoeshine regimen (which would include the application of the cream and/wax), and between "formal polish jobs" (which also represents the use of creams and/or waxes)

Edited by David Copeland - 5/2/13 at 7:44pm
post #4878 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Sorry to burst bubbles here, it I've been using renovateur way before hanger project ever carried it. Hanger project is in the business of selling products. I have many more years of experience using Saphir. Hanger Project doesn't.


If it was being caused by using Saphir products, wouldn't others here be experiencing the same issue by noiw?
post #4879 of 12441
Quote:

SPECULATION: Based on the above, I can believe that shoes treated with oils and fats, but no water containing conditioner, could dry out and crack. I could believe this might happen particularly quickly if they are stored in a low humidity environment. A heavily air conditioned room would be bad, an unconditioned space in a warm, arid part of the country would be even worse. This would not mean that the Renovateur, etc, caused the cracking, but by failing to restore water, they may have failed to prevent it.

 

Following the recent furore over cracked leather (the Curious Case of Patrick Booth, or "Renogate" as the press are calling it) and the subsequent speculation over humidity levels, I have decided to market a humidor for fine shoes.

 

 

The cabinet is made from the finest rosewood, with a cedar interior. The humidor will have three settings: "Dank Day in Northampton" for calfskin; "Spring Morning on Jermyn Street" for suede; and "Sweltering Afternoon in Chicago, No.8" for cordovan leathers.

 

The anticipated price is $1,500, with a 10% discount for SF members.

post #4880 of 12441
Come guys, play nice; shoe care isn't exact science.
post #4881 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaporaz View Post

"Renogate"

crackup[1].gif

Excellent!
post #4882 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crat View Post

Come guys, play nice; shoe care isn't exact science.

 

It wasn't an attack on dbhdnhdbh- who might be on to something- or anyone else; just a gentle satire on the whole thread.

post #4883 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaporaz View Post

It wasn't an attack on dbhdnhdbh- who might be on to something- or anyone else; just a gentle satire on the whole thread.

It's not the first time humidor was brought up in a shoe thread...

p.s., the conclusion last time was that humidor is very bad for your shoe trees.

p.s.s., at $1,500 USD, you have a customer right here!
post #4884 of 12441
Certain individual has been trolling in some venders favor. Nothing against HP, but they are never the shoe experts. Saphir was popular on this forum way longer than HP has been around.

And yes, HP's shoe care regiment is bad for most customers. Renomat is as bad as acetone or dye removers to all shoes. And renovator is a good product but its like those 2-in-1 shampoo + conditioners; a lazy man's solution. Caveat emptor.
post #4885 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaporaz View Post

It wasn't an attack on dbhdnhdbh- who might be on to something- or anyone else; just a gentle satire on the whole thread.
't was not directed at you : )
post #4886 of 12441
Want a shoomidor!
post #4887 of 12441
Patrick,

How would you Lexol condition shoes that are already nicely (Saphir) polished? I find the Lexol doesn't soak in on well polished shoes and instead just sits on top like an oily mess.

BTW I did Lexol lighter colored shoes first instead of Reno after Reno ruined the finish on a walnut pair of nice Santoni loafers.
post #4888 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Certain individual has been trolling in some venders favor. Nothing against HP, but they are never the shoe experts. Saphir was popular on this forum way longer than HP has been around.

And yes, HP's shoe care regiment is bad for most customers. Renomat is as bad as acetone or dye removers to all shoes. And renovator is a good product but its like those 2-in-1 shampoo + conditioners; a lazy man's solution. Caveat emptor.

Agreed. 100%. I have been using these products before any of these vendors had them. They are in the business to sell products, that's it. David, I don't know if you are consciously, or unconsciously reading past what I have been saying or not (am I the only once seeing this???), but I don't really think some convoluted process using Saphir is the answer to my problems. Maybe you are just upset you spent all kinds of money on these products and are in denial. I'm not saying they are bad, they just have to be used the right way. The right way, based on my experience is not what Kirby says. I know he has videos, I know he soaks up oils on pieces of paper for "oohs and ahhs" But I had been using all of their products like everybody says, longer than most of these people who are pushing it. I'm saying it's not the best. You say that you want to help me restore the luster of my shoes. That's not the issue. Are they shiny? You bet! Shiny as hell. But they are also cracking. Once again, I repeat myself, shiny doesn't mean healthy! Plus, there is almost nothing that suggests putting cream polish, and wax polish on shoes is the same as conditioning. It anything over polishing is damaging to shoes. Now, can I send my shoes to B Nelson and have them patched up like poorsod? You bet. But in the future I don't want to resort to this in such a short amount of time. Will I continue to use Saphir products? You bet, just not in flex areas, minus some cream polish sparingly once in a while. But dammit, that vamp is not getting renovateur, it is getting Lexol.

@wiredrob I'm not using Lexol on heavily polished areas like the toe and heel counters, that will get the beloved renovateur and wax polish. The vamp should never have that much polish on it that the Lexol can't be absorbed well. Also, it is easy to overuse Lexol. I find that only about a fingernail size amount is more than enough for the vamp with gentile pressure. You will see that it picks up a lot of the wax on the shoe.

Another thing in the Lexol interviews with the makers have said is that they spent a lot of time perfecting a way to make the product get where it is supposed to and stay there without migration. This is important and something I wondered about a lot. If you take a rag and soak it with water and then ring it out, what happens? Water pours out of it. I have always thought about this with flexing and leather conditioners. As soon as leather is flexed does this same thing happen? I think it does, which is another reason why I like their approach of keeping the oils where they are applied.

Another facet to this saga is the fact that I live in NYC. I walk a lot. I don't shuffle from the house, to a car, and car to office. I walk a half a mile to the subway station, probably another half a mile during lunchtime, half a mile home. Weekends I do a lot of walking. I definitely use my shoes. These aren't babied as far as use. Many will say, well then there it is! I don't buy it because, again my oldest least reno treated shoes are the ones that have lasted. Why? I think it is the "renovateur-only-as-conditioner" approach, which a lot of people like and use. Dammit, David if you say I need to strip the vamp and apply dubbin twice a year I might blow my brains out. That is bullshit if you ask me. vigorously applying an acetone based concoction to the vamp of your shoe only to apply grease and then re-build a finish is absurd. More harm than good. One step forward, two steps back.
post #4889 of 12441

At what point does persistent repetition of an otherwise valid post regarding one individual's experience with a particular product transition into trolling?  5, 10, 20?  Not sure what the number is, but I feel we are getting close.

post #4890 of 12441
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


I have been using these products before any of these vendors had them. They are in the business to sell products, that's it. David
Now, can I send my shoes to B Nelson and have them patched up like poorsod? You bet. But in the future I don't want to resort to this in such a short amount of time. Will I continue to use Saphir products? You bet, just not in flex areas, minus some cream polish sparingly once in a while. But dammit, that vamp is not getting renovateur, it is getting Lexol.

I walk a half a mile to the subway station, probably another half a mile during lunchtime, half a mile home. Weekends I do a lot of walking. 
Dammit, David if you say I need to strip the vamp and apply dubbin twice a year I might blow my brains out. 

 

In the last week I have been recommending to also speak to Nick Valenti who has been in the primary business of refinishing and repairing shoes for generations.  If he sells products, they are an add-on convenience to customers such as yourself who live in New York.  

 

I suggest you get a phone or in store opinion before you proceed.  And you may find there is no need to strip the vamp at all, or apply anything twice a year.  Nick is a Master Craftsman - right in the heart of New York.  Just call him, tell him what's up, and ask if your remedy of using Lexol on the vamp and another product elsewhere - is an idea that Nick has experience in!  In fact, I would begin using Lexol on the vamp of my shoes if you find Nick has a second recommended thought on it.

 

http://www.bnelsonshoes.com/testimonials.asp

 

And Patrick, on a side note I enjoyed reading about your walking in New York City.  As I recall, there are ten blocks to every mile in NYC - and aside from the daily cultural entertainment of soaking in the comings and goings of other folks and their styles - it's good to keep the calories in check.  My first experience was walking Park Avenue and experiencing the Village (in the 60's when Dylan was playing).  My walking days now are a bit different, in that the comings and goings are of the local animal and fowl inhabitants of the Rocky Mountains.

 

My wife has never been to New York - and I would love to take her - maybe even look you up for a meet, if you're so inclined.  But beware, I will be wearing my Walnut Daltons in Montana style. [ grin ]

 

David

 

PS:  To a few of the other members:  The name of this topic is The Official Shoe Care Thread.  If remaining silent about recommending a Master Craftsman or a retail outlet where the owner can offer his own personal experience - is an approach to avoid an alleged reputation of a Troll, then I suspect I must suffer through the bait by praying, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."


Edited by David Copeland - 5/3/13 at 12:01pm
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