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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 1156

post #17326 of 19038
If I wanted to make tan suede look darker and more distressed, what could I do? Sno-seal? Obenauf's? Other options?
post #17327 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dario65 View Post
 

That's one of the questions for which I'm seeking an answer. If all conditioners are a solvent of polish, I suppose that you can apply conditioner over polish since it dissolves it. How much polish can be on there before it becomes a problem?

 

Re the acetone, I would guess that all conditioners have some solvent to keep them in liquid form and emulsified. I suspect most of them have acetone, naphtha, or something similar. Acetone has the advantage of being highly volatile so it evaporates quickly. As solvent for shoe polish I would think it would evaporate before doing much damage to the leather. 

 

Well, I don't know the answer to the chemical bit. Just to elaborate: I use cream polish when I think the shoes need it (usually about once every 6 weeks. I don't use wax, as I am happy with the shine that cream polish gives. If I am in a hurry, I use a product called Brush Up, made for Oliver Sweeney. It is much lighter than cream polish and translucent. Its quick to put on and if left overnight, produces a nice shine. Essentially, for me, in the winter is that it contains no turpentine - I am allergic to it and can only use it outside. Brush up  contains: beeswax, lanolin, carnauba wax, Sea Buckthorn oil and Neatsfoot oil 

 

 

If I was going to use wax, this would be the order of things. Apply the cream polish, wait for an hour or so and brush the shoes. Once having given them a thorough brush, apply the wax and brush the shoes. As I understand it, the wax is mostly decorative. 

 

I use Lexol as a conditioner and use it about once a year.

post #17328 of 19038

Thanks for all the info. I've been reading that cream polish is essentially a colored conditioner. You guys think this is correct? 

post #17329 of 19038

(Edited for clarity - I was confusing Bick and HDLP on absorption). 

 

FYI on conditioners: I took an old pair of tan colored Red Wing work boots that have been neglected for ~20 years. Used Bicks, Lexol, and HDLP on different parts of the boots. So far the Lexol and HDLP have darkened them. Will see if that fades over time. I have 3 coats of Bicks on one with no significant darkening. Most interesting to me is that Lexol got absorbed almost immediately. The HDLP and Bicks took a while to get absorbed (or could have been evaporation). I started at one end of the boot and applied Lexol. By the time I got back to the end where I had started to wipe it down the stuff was gone and already absorbed by the leather. It was like a sponge taking up water. 

 

The leather with Bicks on it feels the same, but less dry. The area with Lexol feels just a little bit greasy - just barely. The area with HDLP feels waxy. Not surprising given that HDLP is a solid at room temp and the other two are liquid. 

 

Will try a couple of others as well. They all seem to do a good job of getting into the leather. For work boots where darkening isn't an issue I'd probably use HDLP or Lexol. For my nicer shoes I'll stick to Bicks or something else that is non-darkening (much less darkening is more accurate). 

 

Update: two days later the Lexol no longer has a greasy feel and the HDLP is just barely waxy. If I didn't know what I was looking for, I'd say they all feel about the same. Note that I put on a heavy coats of HDLP and Lexol. No change in the colors: HDLP is the darkest, Lexol is a little less dark, and the three coats of Bicks is still much lighter that the other two. Will see if darkening fades over time. 


Edited by Dario65 - 12/14/15 at 7:44am
post #17330 of 19038

Question for the shoemakers out there. Have you noticed any real-world differences in quality or performance of welted vs nailed soles? I am having a pair of boots made and have the option of nailed soles. I am told this can make the sole harder wearing, but I wonder if it is necessary for casual boots or if it would effect the weight of the boots. Ah and also, I wonder if it would make resoling more difficult for my neighborhood cobbler.

post #17331 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonHedonist View Post

Question for the shoemakers out there. Have you noticed any real-world differences in quality or performance of welted vs nailed soles? I am having a pair of boots made and have the option of nailed soles. I am told this can make the sole harder wearing, but I wonder if it is necessary for casual boots or if it would effect the weight of the boots. Ah and also, I wonder if it would make resoling more difficult for my neighborhood cobbler.

Back in the '70's Sydney Brinkerhoff wrote a monograph called "Boots and Shoes of the Frontier Soldier," published by the Arizona Historical Society, in which he explored the various construction methods of Union shoe and boot procurements during and after the Am. Civil War.

In the aftermath of the war the government had over a million pairs of surplus boots and shoes that were issued to soldiers on the frontier. The government commissioned a study to determine which was the best method of construction.

The long and short of it is/was that welting was the only method of making that stood up to the contrasting environments and abuses that the soldier subjected their footwear to.

One of the methods that was very popular at the time and, hence, subject to study, was the use of "rivets"--essentially brass nails...in the terminology of the time.

Nails on modern shoes...used to hold the outsole on...can be brass or iron. Both...in order to be an effective and secure means of attachment...have to be driven in such a way that they "clinch" (turn) on a metal plate mounted on the bottom of the last..

The studies Brinkerhoff cites--done by the military--showed that nails tend to continue to work through the leather, eventually protruding into the interior of the shoe enough to cut soldiers feet. In point of fact, part of this is that the leather of the insole itself, tends to shrink and compress around the nails, leaving them "proud."

Additionally, iron nails rust when they come into contact with the moisture and salt of perspiration. Rust is an oxidative process--a "slow fire"--and it will carbonize vegetable tanned insole leather to the point
of making it brittle.

Interestingly enough, one of the other common methods of attachment (almost ubiquitous for common, RTW footwear)--wooden pegs--was also shown to be inadequate in extreme conditions, esp. dry heat. Pegs fell out of shoes in the barren landscapes of the Southwest.

--
Edited by DWFII - 12/13/15 at 7:35am
post #17332 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Back in the '70's Sydney Brinkerhoff wrote a monograph called "Boots and Shoes of the Frontier Soldier," published by the Arizona Historical Society, in which he explored the various construction methods of Union shoe and boot procurements during and after the Am. Civil War.

In the aftermath of the war the government had over a million pairs of surplus boots and shoes that were issued to soldiers on the frontier. The government commissioned a study to determine which was the best method of construction.

The long and short of it is/was that welting was the only method of making that stood up to the contrasting environments and abuses that the soldier subjected their footwear to.

One of the methods that was very popular at the time and, hence, subject to study, was the use of "rivets"--essentially brass nails...in the terminology of the time.

Nails on modern shoes...used to hold the outsole on...can be brass or iron. Both...in order to be an effective and secure means of attachment...have to be driven in such a way that they "clinch" (turn) on a metal plate mounted on the bottom of the last..

The studies Brinkerhoff cites--done by the military--showed that nails tend to continue to work through the leather, eventually protruding into the interior of the shoe enough to cut soldiers feet. In point of fact, part of this is that the leather of the insole itself, tends to shrink and compress around the nails, leaving them "proud."

Additionally, iron nails rust when they come into contact with the moisture and salt of perspiration. Rust is an oxidative process--a "slow fire"--and it will carbonize vegetable tanned insole leather to the point of making it brittle.

Interestingly enough, one of the other common methods of attachment (almost ubiquitous for common, RTW footwear)--wooden pegs--was also shown to be inadequate in extreme conditions, esp. dry heat. Pegs fell out of shoes in the barren landscapes of the Southwest.

--

 

LoL - lots of interesting information there, not the least of which was that the reaction to having a million surplus shoes was to commision a study about shoe construction methods.

And for the tldr crowd, the answer is: welting

post #17333 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by M635Guy View Post

LoL - lots of interesting information there, not the least of which was that the reaction to having a million surplus shoes was to commision a study about shoe construction methods.

Pretty sure it was a reaction to complaints from soldiers in the field (Brinkerhoff says something to that effect as I recall) and perhaps to collect data in preparation for the new model...which, IIRC, was a backseamed boot much like a English field boot.

In any case the results square with all my experiences, as well.
post #17334 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post



Pretty sure it was a reaction to complaints from soldiers in the field (Brinkerhoff says something to that effect as I recall) and perhaps to collect data in preparation for the new model...which, IIRC, was a backseamed boot much like a English field boot.



In any case the results square with all my experiences, as well.

 



Ah - I see.

All of the conclusions make sense - I guess nails were than stitching, especially since it was probably by hand in both cases? And cast iron was used to to wartime shortages of brass? Otherwise, nailing in those areas of the shoe and using cast iron as a material seem like obviously bad ideas, especially for "working" boots.
post #17335 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by M635Guy View Post


Ah - I see.

All of the conclusions make sense - I guess nails were than stitching, especially since it was probably by hand in both cases? And cast iron was used to to wartime shortages of brass? Otherwise, nailing in those areas of the shoe and using cast iron as a material seem like obviously bad ideas, especially for "working" boots.

AFAIK, during the war the military put out contracts for boots and shoes, some of which were pegged (as mentioned, it was a common construction technique for low end footwear at the time), some were nailed and a few were welted. All this work was done by hand (although machines were being invented nearly on a daily basis--pegging machines, nailing machines, sewing machines, and even the GYW machine were invented during the second and third quarter of the 19th century) at least initially.

Iron nails today are more common in footwear than brass nails, simply due to the cost of brass. Even in high end RTW it is generally iron nails that hold the heel seat together and the heel stack on. But you don't see much in the way of the outsole being attached exclusively with nails...brass or iron...these days. Sometimes you'll see nails in the waist of work or heavy duty shoes/boots but they are there more for reinforcement and stability than to secure the outsole. And they are mostly iron or, at best, brass plated.
post #17336 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

AFAIK, during the war the military put out contracts for boots and shoes, some of which were pegged (as mentioned, it was a common construction technique for low end footwear at the time), some were nailed and a few were welted. All this work was done by hand (although machines were being invented nearly on a daily basis--pegging machines, nailing machines, sewing machines, and even the GYW machine were invented during the second and third quarter of the 19th century) at least initially.

Iron nails today are more common in footwear than brass nails, simply due to the cost of brass. Even in high end RTW it is generally iron nails that hold the heel seat together and the heel stack on. But you don't see much in the way of the outsole being attached exclusively with nails...brass or iron...these days. Sometimes you'll see nails in the waist of work or heavy duty shoes/boots but they are there more for reinforcement and stability than to secure the outsole. And they are mostly iron or, at best, brass plated.

Some heavy-duty boots with rubber lugged soles use screws in addtion to welting/stitching. Are these screws more likely to keep the sole together or cause the negative efrects described above?

Thannks,
Jon
post #17337 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

Some heavy-duty boots with rubber lugged soles use screws in addtion to welting/stitching. Are these screws more likely to keep the sole together or cause the negative efrects described above?

Thannks,
Jon

A little of both.

Rigid vertical fasteners tend to stabilize the shoe and the sole in particular. i

Often when a lugged sole is used, a leather midsole will also be used. If a brass screw is used in such circumstances the only drawback is a hole in the leather midsole. If an iron screw is used this can, again, carbonize the leather of the midsole. As well as leave a hole.

Sometimes a rubber midsole is used. While not as rigid or sturdy as a leather midsole, nor as capable of securing the screw, there's ordinarily little downside to driving screws as long as they don't go too deep..ie. into the insole. .

If the lug sole is sewn on, I doubt there's much advantage gained by using screws in addition, aside from, as I say, stability (preventing the sole from working against underlying layers).
post #17338 of 19038
Do people use different suede brushes for different color suedes. Just got my first pairs of JLP suede shoes, green, red and purple with some red brown MTO's from Vass soon to arrive. Conditioned them with Saphir renovate ur sued spray and when I brushed the blue ones they were covered in green from the other pair. Comes off easily, but just wanted to know what others do.
post #17339 of 19038
@DWFII

Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. Stellar feedback as always!
post #17340 of 19038
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonHedonist View Post

@DWFII

Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. Stellar feedback as always!

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