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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 1131

post #16951 of 19046


Hello. I was told I would most likely get the answer I was looking for here so here's my question: Does anybody know what I can do to get rid of the black spot on this Wolverine boot? Or at least make it less noticeable. The boots are made of oiled leather (if that makes any difference). Thanks..
post #16952 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post
 

   I am not a native speaker but i dont think this can make any sense ! A chemical process can never be undone (its scientifically wrong to say that! the correct Way to say it is that you can make a new chemical process(chemical reaction is the right term but anyway) that will reverse the outcome of the first chemical reaction! there is a huge difference scientifically speaking)  

Tanning hide into leather involves a process which permanently alters the protein structure of skin(copy paste from chemistry book and strangely i found the same expression in wikipedia hahhaha:happy:) ! General chemistry :if the structure of protein is disturbed ,altered or damage the protein molecule can never return in its original state (simplified :you can never unbaked a baked egg(when you bake eggs heat brakes the bonds in proteins))!! 

 

Hydrogen bonding is not always week , there is 4 categories of hydrogen bonding : week-moderate-strong -very strong depending on how they form and the molecules take part in it!!

 

  So pls  all (i am referring to everyone) stop writing things that you have found in an Internet article and didnt verified them through scientific books(probably googled and most of the time are miss leading or the original author dont know the subject well ) 

 

Btw there is collagen fibers  and not protein fibers in chemistry!! 

 

One of the benefits of chrome tanned leather is that is can be processed quickly. Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) is generally used. The acid creates carboxylates by deprotonating carboxylic acids on the side chains of the collagen. The trivalent chrome bonds with the resulting carboxylates on the collagen fibers (Erickson 1998). This bond is stronger than the bonds with the tannic acids and is the reason for the stability of the leather!

 

isoelectric point is the point of pH when you pass it the charge is changing from cationic(ionic negative) to inionic (ionic positive)!! If you are under isoelectric point you have to use inionic dye so the bond to be more easy -faster-and deeper in the hide! This does not effect preexisting bonds ! 

 

i didn't want to write for this subject  from start because its a Paine in the .... to translate from Greek to English chemistry terms and i am bored to hell hahaha :p 

 

So if you all have time pls read this study from Dr. Tereza Varnali (PHD etc)  of the  Department of Chemistry in the University (i know its 55 pages but it worth) to end this stupid argument once and for all(i am referring to all this from all sides) http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/09/08854.htm

 

ps. White vinegar helps to remove salt stains (cause of its ph) in the long run its not very good for your shoes if you soak them in it cause of the micro organisms in it (mostly bacteria and fungus ) !! To be safe use one witch is pasteurized (99% of micro organisms are dead)

 

ps2 . Sorry for the long post and hopped i helped a little bit!

 

ps3 (edit reason) the example of magnets its completely out of place!! this is force field physics  and not chemistry at all!! in chemistry there are bonds with the same polarity (covalent bond) 

 

Hydrogen bonding by definition is weak. Anyone or anything that tells you otherwise either doesn't know chemistry or is trying to simplify things for you. This is why water evaporates but doesn't explode. 

 

Collagen is a protein. 

 

Isoelectric point at which a molecule has no charge due to ions in solution (and consequently pH). If you're below the isoelectric point, your molecules have a net positive charge, and thus you need a negatively charged molecule bind effectively. Similarly, if you have a net negatively charged molecule (above the isoelectric point), you need a positively charged molecule to bind effectively. 

post #16953 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


The tannins bond to the protein fibers through hydrogen bonding. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The protein fibers are ionic positive and the tannins are ionic negative, this is why they bond. These are weak bonds and since leather's protein fibers are amphoteric exposing it to a pH above it's isoelectric point ~3 - 5 shifts the fibers to ionic negative which repels the tannins, fat liquors, dyes and anything that is ionic negative and hydrogen bonded to the fibers. It is like putting two like poles of magnets together, they push apart. This is what happens with the tannins and protein fibers. It essentially turns the hide into rawhide (untanned leather) over time. Keeping leather below its isoelectric point inhibits deterioration due to this pH shifting.

 

 

This may be the case for vegetable tanning, but a look at the details of chrome tanning on wikipedia, chrome-tanning makes strong cross links (covalent bonds) with collagen. 

post #16954 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newberry View Post



Hello. I was told I would most likely get the answer I was looking for here so here's my question: Does anybody know what I can do to get rid of the black spot on this Wolverine boot? Or at least make it less noticeable. The boots are made of oiled leather (if that makes any difference). Thanks..

Not easy for a laymen to do but, if you are going to try it, it will take some patience.

Find a crayon as close as possible to the color of your boot.
Soften it with some heat.
Fill in the area.
Let it set.
With the back of a spoon, gently rub out the area until there is no wax causing any seams around the area.

You will see a difference in color. That's normal.
Use masking tape to tape the top of the welt. What you are doing is protecting the welt and white stitching for the next process.

Get some leather spray as close as possible to the color of your boot.

Lightly (and I stress LIGHTLY) mist the area to blend in. You should do the same thing on the toe of the other boot to match.

Let it set until completely dry.

Lightly apply a coat of conditioner.
post #16955 of 19046

How do I take care of Horween Smooth Chamois Leather?

 

Here's the shoe I bought.
Just recently got into shoes, and so far I've only bought a shoe tree to put in it when I don't wear them.

I've noticed that when water droplets fall on the shoe, the shoe immediately soaks it in.  I guess that is the nature of a chamois leather

How could this shoe look with proper care?
What tools will I need?

 

post #16956 of 19046
I have limited experience with chamois, but from what little I know, it seems like a low-maintenance "rough" sort of leather. As in, meant to be abused and not worried about.
post #16957 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsjimmyh View Post

How do I take care of Horween Smooth Chamois Leather?

Here's the shoe I bought.

Just recently got into shoes, and so far I've only bought a shoe tree to put in it when I don't wear them.


I've noticed that when water droplets fall on the shoe, the shoe immediately soaks it in.  I guess that is the nature of a chamois leather


How could this shoe look with proper care?

What tools will I need?



Welcome to SF. If you want to play it safe use this stuff as directed:
http://www.amazon.com/VECTRA-Ultimate-Apparel-Protector-Handbags/dp/B004X23DJ6
post #16958 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Welcome to SF. If you want to play it safe use this stuff as directed:
http://www.amazon.com/VECTRA-Ultimate-Apparel-Protector-Handbags/dp/B004X23DJ6

Nick - does that stuff have silicone?  Says a lot of things there but doesn't say "no silicone" in the description or the Q/A.  I'm probably missing something obvious...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsjimmyh View Post
 

How do I take care of Horween Smooth Chamois Leather?

 

Here's the shoe I bought.
Just recently got into shoes, and so far I've only bought a shoe tree to put in it when I don't wear them.

I've noticed that when water droplets fall on the shoe, the shoe immediately soaks it in.  I guess that is the nature of a chamois leather

How could this shoe look with proper care?
What tools will I need?

 

 

In addition to the product noted above, for water resistance you can also consider Saphir Invulner, which is pricey, but definitely non-silicone and stated to be safe for suedes and standard leathers.  Lots of folks like the Tarrago Nano spray as well.  

post #16959 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post
 

 

Hydrogen bonding by definition is weak. Anyone or anything that tells you otherwise either doesn't know chemistry or is trying to simplify things for you. This is why water evaporates but doesn't explode. 

 

Collagen is a protein. 

 

Isoelectric point at which a molecule has no charge due to ions in solution (and consequently pH). If you're below the isoelectric point, your molecules have a net positive charge, and thus you need a negatively charged molecule bind effectively. Similarly, if you have a net negatively charged molecule (above the isoelectric point), you need a positively charged molecule to bind effectively. 

 

   I think i already said that i am not a native speaker so trying translate scientific terms i see  or remember in Greek to English is not the easiest thing (and maybe some times not as accurate as a professional would do)! So i give you all my apologies for that! 

 

  The strength of hydrogen bonding reducing as the halide radius increase but strong hydrogen bonds can even occur to the hydrogen atoms in metal hydrides (for example, LiH····HF; The current view of the hydrogen bond has been reviewed in the late years and comparison to halogen bonds is made! (copy paste phrase from uk science  university (chemistry department) a friend college professor sent me and i have to admit i could never be able to find it in my books).

  Hydrogen bonds can vary in strength from very weak (1–2 kJ mol−1) to extremely strong (161.5 kJ mol−1 in the ion HF
2
).[8][9] Typicalenthalpies in vapor include:

  • F−H:F (161.5 kJ/mol or 38.6 kcal/mol)
  • O−H:N (29 kJ/mol or 6.9 kcal/mol)
  • O−H:O (21 kJ/mol or 5.0 kcal/mol)
  • N−H:N (13 kJ/mol or 3.1 kcal/mol)
  • N−H:O (8 kJ/mol or 1.9 kcal/mol)

(copy paste from wikipedia and some science documentation i had in my electronic archive).

 

 

  Collagen is a fibrous protein group  (Collagen is called the group of the proteins for example brevity(3 proteins mostly in the same row) and wrongly some times assumed to be a protein itself )

The name collagen comes from the Greek κόλλα (kólla), meaning "glue", and suffix -γέν, -gen, denoting "producing"

 

  I think i said exactly the same thing about isoelectric point! (sorry for trying to say it simplified but when is going to science even if i can understand everything when i read it , its not the same thing to write it!)

 

  This is the last post i write about this thing and i think we all overdone it with chemistry!! 

 

  I hope i was at least informative and helped some thing to be more clear to everyone!! Lets get back on topic Gentlemen and care-shine some shoes!!:happy: 

post #16960 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post
 

 

   I think i already said that i am not a native speaker so trying translate scientific terms i see  or remember in Greek to English is not the easiest thing (and maybe some times not as accurate as a professional would do)! So i give you all my apologies for that! 

 

  The strength of hydrogen bonding reducing as the halide radius increase but strong hydrogen bonds can even occur to the hydrogen atoms in metal hydrides (for example, LiH····HF; The current view of the hydrogen bond has been reviewed in the late years and comparison to halogen bonds is made! (copy paste phrase from uk science  university (chemistry department) a friend college professor sent me and i have to admit i could never be able to find it in my books).

  Hydrogen bonds can vary in strength from very weak (1–2 kJ mol−1) to extremely strong (161.5 kJ mol−1 in the ion HF
2
).[8][9] Typicalenthalpies in vapor include:

  • F−H:F (161.5 kJ/mol or 38.6 kcal/mol)
  • O−H:N (29 kJ/mol or 6.9 kcal/mol)
  • O−H:O (21 kJ/mol or 5.0 kcal/mol)
  • N−H:N (13 kJ/mol or 3.1 kcal/mol)
  • N−H:O (8 kJ/mol or 1.9 kcal/mol)

(copy paste from wikipedia and some science documentation i had in my electronic archive).

 

 

  Collagen is a fibrous protein group  (Collagen is called the group of the proteins for example brevity(3 proteins mostly in the same row) and wrongly some times assumed to be a protein itself )

The name collagen comes from the Greek κόλλα (kólla), meaning "glue", and suffix -γέν, -gen, denoting "producing"

 

  I think i said exactly the same thing about isoelectric point! (sorry for trying to say it simplified but when is going to science even if i can understand everything when i read it , its not the same thing to write it!)

 

  This is the last post i write about this thing and i think we all overdone it with chemistry!! 

 

  I hope i was at least informative and helped some thing to be more clear to everyone!! Lets get back on topic Gentlemen and care-shine some shoes!!:happy: 

 

A pretty standard measure of the strength of covalent bonds is the C-H bond in almost all organic compounds. That's abot 100 kcal/mol, or about 420 kJ/mol. The strongest H bond you've given is the bifluoride ion, which is a whopping 39% as strong as a covalent bond. H-bonds are weak by definition. They easily break and reform under normal conditions. 

 

Collagen is a multi-helical protein complex with individual protein subunits, which if memory serves correctly are cross-linked (covalently bonded) to each other. It's the same way that Hemoglobin is a protein that is made of 4 separate protein subunits. They still come together and act as one. Collagen is a protein, feel free to think otherwise, but you'd simply be wrong. 

post #16961 of 19046
Y'know what? I'm just gonna leave my suedes alone and keep them out of the rain. I didn't go to a liberal arts school just to get exposed to this much science.
post #16962 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post
 

 

A pretty standard measure of the strength of covalent bonds is the C-H bond in almost all organic compounds. That's abot 100 kcal/mol, or about 420 kJ/mol. The strongest H bond you've given is the bifluoride ion, which is a whopping 39% as strong as a covalent bond. H-bonds are weak by definition. They easily break and reform under normal conditions. 

 

Collagen is a multi-helical protein complex with individual protein subunits, which if memory serves correctly are cross-linked (covalently bonded) to each other. It's the same way that Hemoglobin is a protein that is made of 4 separate protein subunits. They still come together and act as one. Collagen is a protein, feel free to think otherwise, but you'd simply be wrong. 

  You know that you subtract yourself right? Collagen -hemoglobin(in the blood cells if i remember right? ) i can find a lot more if you want are protein complex who acts like one as you said but it is a complex of 2-3-4 or more proteins!!! they call them proteins for example brevity but the right term is protein complexes,  something that has come to be used does not mean it is right! 

 

  Where did i said that H bond is stronger that covalent? I am not a chemist but when a Nobel winner scientist says that hbond has categories and some are very strong i tend to believe him !

 

  All the above are not my statements are copy paste from books-scientific researches , science Nobel winners etc ! Feel free to go and correct them !

 

  Last post on this thread about this topic! I am sorry in advance 

post #16963 of 19046
Response from Allen Edmunds.

Saddle Soap is a proprietary compound containing mild soap and softening ingredients such as neatsfoot oil, glycerin, Mink oil, and lanolin. It also contains beeswax to protect leather. It is used for cleaning, conditioning and softening leather, particularly that of saddles and other horse tack, hence its name.

Sounds like a copy and pasted response imo
post #16964 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post

Response from Allen Edmunds.

Saddle Soap is a proprietary compound containing mild soap and softening ingredients such as neatsfoot oil, glycerin, Mink oil, and lanolin. It also contains beeswax to protect leather. It is used for cleaning, conditioning and softening leather, particularly that of saddles and other horse tack, hence its name.

Sounds like a copy and pasted response imo

Of course it is. You contacted the customer service department after all. wink.gif

At least they gave you a partial ingredients list. I wonder who their supplier for this product is.
post #16965 of 19046
Quote:
Originally Posted by peppercorn78 View Post


Of course it is. You contacted the customer service department after all. wink.gif

At least they gave you a partial ingredients list. I wonder who their supplier for this product is.

Their shoe care products used to be re-branded  Collonil ! 1-1,5 year ago they said that now they make their own polish!! (in their site they say that their shoe polish is "specially formulated " for Allen Edmond's (some products some others dont say anything) and is made in the U.S so i can suspect a new collaboration) .:confused:

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