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post #16936 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

(cc'ing @DWFII, )

Sorry, no idea. I don't care for shell (mostly because I don't like working with it) and I don't recommend or have much in the way of an opinion (maybe a little bit of a jaundiced eye) about proprietary products.
post #16937 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


Read a book about the science of leather. It all makes perfect sense. We know a lot more about leather today than they did in the late 1800's. Why are you so insistent on this? Science and logic man. Where's you're "verified claim" or whatever you mean by that for the use of saddle soap past "it has been used for ages"?

The only reason it exists today still is because people have the same attitude towards it as you do right now, "well it has been around for ages it must be good." No, it is around because company's sell it based on your flawed idea.

 

See how it sounds when I express a statement mimicking your "For ages people have used a vinegar solution to rid salt stains from shoes"???  Its been around for ages doesnt mean its necessarily good.

 

Not insisting on anything, but its important to cite tests, data, or something concrete when making such broad stroke and sometimes exaggerated claims. 

 

So far, you have none.

post #16938 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


It's got nothing to do with my status, it has to do with the fact that you are, indeed a douchebag. The insults are warranted. I'm a firm believer that some people just really need to be told.

Maybe if you handle yourself like benhour and not an insufferable ass when you put forth your opinions and research I would have to call you out in such a manner.

 

Nice.  More insults and now patronizing comments towards whoever is questioning the validity of your argument.

 

Your description of leather tanning is correct. But that doesn't mean much or support your claim regarding saddle soaps.

 

Again, here's my opinion, don't spew things as truth when you have no concrete data to back it up.  So far, you still have produced none.

post #16939 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I think everything you've just said is true, all of the leather chemistry texts I have read stress the importance of pH shifting as a part of the process to make leather. You're correct that the proteins will never go back to how they were, but they do repel the tannins and get stiff. They aren't reverting to how they were originally for several reasons in the process of tanning, that's not to say their state doesn't get altered into something different when shifted above their isoelectric point. There's a reason tanneries keep their leather acidic.

The magnet example was just for illustrative purposes, I didn't mean it literally.

My saying hydrogen bonds were weak I was talking relative to disulfide bonds, which are a form of covalent bond.

The pH must be very acidic when the chromium is introduced to ensure that the chromium complexes are small enough to fit in between the fibers and residues of the collagen. Once the desired level of penetration of chrome into the substance is achieved, the pH of the material is raised again to facilitate the process. This step is known as basification. In the raw state, chrome-tanned skins are blue, so are referred to as wet blue. (COPY PASTE not mine)

 

Patrick i knew what you had in mind when you said about the magnets but for someone with no chemistry background this could be misleading , that's why i mentioned about covalent bond!:happy: 

 

Aging of leather :that's why most of the conditioner  have water (aqueous formula ) ,oils ets to prevent this thing from happening!

post #16940 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

See how it sounds when I express a statement mimicking your "For ages people have used a vinegar solution to rid salt stains from shoes"???  Its been around for ages doesnt mean its necessarily good.

Not insisting on anything, but its important to cite tests, data, or something concrete when making such broad stroke and sometimes exaggerated claims. 

So far, you have none.
For ages people used vinegar yes, I also have a technical reason for why it works, where's your technical reasoning for using saddle soap? You don't have any. Leather is acidic, saddle soap isn't. Your opinion has nothing to do with these facts. Ph shifting aside pure logic says it wouldn't be wise to use it.
post #16941 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Nice.  More insults and now patronizing comments towards whoever is questioning the validity of your argument.

Your description of leather tanning is correct. But that doesn't mean much or support your claim regarding saddle soaps.

Again, here's my opinion, don't spew things as truth when you have no concrete data to back it up.  So far, you still have produced none.
Did I patronize benhour? No. Again, leather is acidic, saddle soap isn't so why use it other than you personally like to?
post #16942 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

Recently bought some Alden Leather Defender for my shell cordovan boots. Supposedly it helps with water spotting, I assume by making the surface water repellant (like waterproofers for suede).

My question is: anyone know if this is bad for shell? I assume that, by applying it, I'll make it difficult (if not impossible) for the shell to take conditioners, but I'm not really quite convinced that shell soaks up cream conditioners anyway.

The bottle says the formula is also OK for calf, but that seems dicier than shell.

Anyone have thoughts?

 

Shell cordovan in the making-tanning process is fused with waxes that's why it has this characteristic texture (really smooth and make these huge "creases") !!  i dont think  conditioners can get really deep or any at all in it cause of this high wax content! Btw conditioners ll dissolve Alden defender really easily if there is not a big amount of silicon in it!!

 

the spots occurs from moisture trap under the wax surface and if i remember correctly Mr Rider have given a tip for that(renovateur if i remember correctly but i am not sure) !! 

 

i would try it in the tongue before application to be sure for no stains occurs!

post #16943 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post

the spots occurs from moisture trap under the wax surface and if i remember correctly Mr Rider have given a tip for that(renovateur if i remember correctly but i am not sure) !! 

Yea, I tried that. It helps, I think, but some spotting still occurs. Not really that big of a deal, to be honest, but the Alden guys sometimes talk about Leather Defender, so I bought a bottle to try out. Just wanted to run it by some respected voices here.
post #16944 of 19061
post #16945 of 19061

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


Did I patronize benhour? No. Again, leather is acidic, saddle soap isn't so why use it other than you personally like to?

 

Irrelevant to my point.

 

Since the start of this conversation, I've already indicated, with MSDS from manufacturers, two of your claims were not true.  1) Saddle soap is not highly alkaline.  2) Saddle soap is not straight castile soap.

 

I am asking specifically where's the verification for your claim that saddle soap makes leather brittle.  The science is logical, makes sense, but that's it.  No experiment, no data to your claim.  Maybe some credible sources from non-vendors?

post #16946 of 19061

Edited by tharkun - 10/9/15 at 6:35pm
post #16947 of 19061

 

Nice.  Something I haven't read before.

 

 

Vendor marketing/SEO.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

You don't need scientific experiments when there's pure logic.

 

? Logic replaces experiments, data, reviews?  This isn't exactly applied math or information theory dude.

post #16948 of 19061
Ok Chogall, go ahead keep using saddle soap despite enough evidence, science and logic that states that it isn't ok to.
post #16949 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Quote:

Irrelevant to my point.

Since the start of this conversation, I've already indicated, with MSDS from manufacturers, two of your claims were not true.  1) Saddle soap is not highly alkaline.  2) Saddle soap is not straight castile soap.

Ok, but the reason for not using saddle soap remains, it's above the isoelectric point of leather fibers. That was the point, which you ignore.

Where's scientific studies that prove saddle soap is beneficial?

The pure fact that finished leather is acidic and saddle soap isn't should be enough to not use the stuff.
post #16950 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Ok Chogall, go ahead keep using saddle soap despite enough evidence, science and logic that states that it isn't ok to.


I don't plan on stop using saddle soap or whatever thats in my shoe shine cabinet.  It removes grit and mud wonderfully well without leaving my boots/gloves dry compare to using water alone.  So far they did not untan my boots or turn them brittle after almost a decade.

 

I also have Lexol pH neutral cleaner in addition to my saddle soap but its not as easy to use to clean heavily soiled shoes compare to just water, saddle soap, and a stiff brush.  The difference in pH? 8 of Saddle vs 6-7 of Lexol, both much higher than leather except saddle soap is most oftentimes used diluted.

 

p.s., your hypothesis makes sense, on paper, but is it true in practice? Who knows.  There's this case on the Leather Chemist forum where some guy used saddle soap and leather honey on 500 years old saddle and it disintegrates but who knows the condition of that antique leather?  And here's a quote in that same thread.

   Quote:

I would try with mild soap as the one used for your very best wool suits (Perlan? Woolite?) Rub smoothly (on a hidden area) with an impregnated (lets say 1 part soap, 5 parts cold water)  piece of cloth and check that this treatment only removes dirt. If so, rub with the squezed cloth the whole surface and let the saddle dry at room temperature, never near a heat source. One of the best, and oldest, preservation methods is drying, so NEVER let your saddle get wet, moist, humid or whatever.
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