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post #16921 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeen7908 View Post

Epic shitfight gentlemen


God I wish traverscao was here to see this

He was, he was live texting me.
post #16922 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post

I am not a chemist either but i had some classes in the university (engineering) i dont think leather can bee "untanned" !! In molecular level tannins (vegetable or chrome)  bond with the proteins of the leather and this cant be undone ! The problem maybe with saddle soap is that it ll remove oils and fats from the leather, raising the pH and that ll dry out leather and make it brittle!

The tannins bond to the protein fibers through hydrogen bonding. The protein fibers are ionic positive and the tannins are ionic negative, this is why they bond. These are weak bonds and since leather's protein fibers are amphoteric exposing it to a pH above it's isoelectric point ~3 - 5 shifts the fibers to ionic negative which repels the tannins, fat liquors, dyes and anything that is ionic negative and hydrogen bonded to the fibers. It is like putting two like poles of magnets together, they push apart. This is what happens with the tannins and protein fibers. It essentially turns the hide into rawhide (untanned leather) over time. Keeping leather below its isoelectric point inhibits deterioration due to this pH shifting.
post #16923 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

No offense but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. lol8[1].gif

Again pB could answer this better ...and I could be wrong about it "untanning" (I did put quotes around 'untanned') the leather but,as I understand it tanning agents affect a semi-permanent alteration in the collagen bonds of the fibers. Alkalines reverses that process.

But that was never my objection to saddle soap (and I've said that along with...openly...admitting that when it comes to the chemistry, I'm in over my head), anyway. Mostly I was pointing out that the invariably instant, knee jerk, "yes buts" coming fro certain quarters are unhelpful if not outright trolling.

AFAIK, no one even asked pB for his sources or credentials before dissing the proposition...no one asked the guy who, for all intents and purposes understands his subject well enough to come up with the "vinegar solution" to water and oil stains...much less do a search (god forbid) to see if pB had previously offered them.

The vinegar thing just makes sense in the context of what I have learned about the making of leather and its properties. For ages people have used a vinegar solution to rid salt stains from shoes. Why? Because salt water is alkaline and those salt rings that keep reappearing is exactly the leeching out of the tannins and fat liquors that I just spoke about. You need something acidic to inhibit that chemical reaction from persisting.

Also, lighter colored leathers tend to act kind of like litmus paper when exposed to substances above it's isoelectric point. It makes a mark, I have found using polar cleaners such as acetone don't do anything for it because it won't shift pH. I tried vinegar and boom, it worked. This is why I tend to recommend using this 1 part vinegar to 3 parts distilled water, it offers very light cleaning and is totally pH safe.
post #16924 of 19069
Also, since polar solvents don't have a pH and cannot alter it I see no reason not to use them to remove polish, or clean your shoes. Why even bother with Saddle Soap? WE NOW KNOW THEY VARY in pH, BUT WE STILL KNOW THEY AREN'T OPTIMAL.
post #16925 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


The vinegar thing just makes sense in the context of what I have learned about the making of leather and its properties. For ages people have used a vinegar solution to rid salt stains from shoes. Why? Because salt water is alkaline and those salt rings that keep reappearing is exactly the leeching out of the tannins and fat liquors that I just spoke about. You need something acidic to inhibit that chemical reaction from persisting.

Also, lighter colored leathers tend to act kind of like litmus paper when exposed to substances above it's isoelectric point. It makes a mark, I have found using polar cleaners such as acetone don't do anything for it because it won't shift pH. I tried vinegar and boom, it worked. This is why I tend to recommend using this 1 part vinegar to 3 parts distilled water, it offers very light cleaning and is totally pH safe.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Also, since polar solvents don't have a pH and cannot alter it I see no reason not to use them to remove polish, or clean your shoes. Why even bother with Saddle Soap? WE NOW KNOW THEY VARY in pH, BUT WE STILL KNOW THEY AREN'T OPTIMAL.

 

For ages people have used a saddle soap to clean, condition, and soften leathers.  Its there for a purpose and not at all that evil or detrimental to leather as you've exaggerated without verified claim.

post #16926 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


He was, he was live texting me.

 

Did you get that shit in a box bounty idea from Travers?

post #16927 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


For ages people have used a saddle soap to clean, condition, and soften leathers.  Its there for a purpose and not at all that evil or detrimental to leather as you've exaggerated without verified claim.

Read a book about the science of leather. It all makes perfect sense. We know a lot more about leather today than they did in the late 1800's. Why are you so insistent on this? Science and logic man. Where's you're "verified claim" or whatever you mean by that for the use of saddle soap past "it has been used for ages"?

The only reason it exists today still is because people have the same attitude towards it as you do right now, "well it has been around for ages it must be good." No, it is around because company's sell it based on your flawed idea.
post #16928 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Did you get that shit in a box bounty idea from Travers?

No, that was all me. Same with insinuating you had an inflamed vagina. I take full credit for that one also.
post #16929 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

The tannins bond to the protein fibers through hydrogen bonding. The protein fibers are ionic positive and the tannins are ionic negative, this is why they bond. These are weak bonds and since leather's protein fibers are amphoteric exposing it to a pH above it's isoelectric point ~3 - 5 shifts the fibers to ionic negative which repels the tannins, fat liquors, dyes and anything that is ionic negative and hydrogen bonded to the fibers. It is like putting two like poles of magnets together, they push apart. This is what happens with the tannins and protein fibers. It essentially turns the hide into rawhide (untanned leather) over time. Keeping leather below its isoelectric point inhibits deterioration due to this pH shifting.

Just wanted to thank you for posting, or reposting, this. It's virtually the definition of constructive contribution. I've save it and saved the link.

Good on you, mate.

fing02[1].gif

cheers.gif
post #16930 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post


Why can't it be undone? Many chemical processes can be undone. Not all of them easily and not all of them will result in the original molecules to be released again but they can be undone. Now the question is whether saddle soap can undo that bond. Nobody so far has given real reasons for why it would or would not do that.

Example: One chemical process can make water from H and O H2O. Theres a ton of processes that can undo H2O again but not saddle soap wink.gif Hint adding HCl to H2O will not undo water but at least will split off a certain amount of H3O+ ions in the solution. Thats what makes it acidic. Adding pure Na to H2O will react *heavily* releasing hydrogen and making caustic soda. However putting NaCl into H2O will just make your water salty without a reaction (you do that all the time unless you cook pasta without salt smile.gif). Before turning into a software developer I wanted to study chemistry.

   I am not a native speaker but i dont think this can make any sense ! A chemical process can never be undone (its scientifically wrong to say that! the correct Way to say it is that you can make a new chemical process(chemical reaction is the right term but anyway) that will reverse the outcome of the first chemical reaction! there is a huge difference scientifically speaking)  

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


The tannins bond to the protein fibers through hydrogen bonding. The protein fibers are ionic positive and the tannins are ionic negative, this is why they bond. These are weak bonds and since leather's protein fibers are amphoteric exposing it to a pH above it's isoelectric point ~3 - 5 shifts the fibers to ionic negative which repels the tannins, fat liquors, dyes and anything that is ionic negative and hydrogen bonded to the fibers. It is like putting two like poles of magnets together, they push apart. This is what happens with the tannins and protein fibers. It essentially turns the hide into rawhide (untanned leather) over time. Keeping leather below its isoelectric point inhibits deterioration due to this pH shifting.

Tanning hide into leather involves a process which permanently alters the protein structure of skin(copy paste from chemistry book and strangely i found the same expression in wikipedia hahhaha:happy:) ! General chemistry :if the structure of protein is disturbed ,altered or damage the protein molecule can never return in its original state (simplified :you can never unbaked a baked egg(when you bake eggs heat brakes the bonds in proteins))!! 

 

Hydrogen bonding is not always week , there is 4 categories of hydrogen bonding : week-moderate-strong -very strong depending on how they form and the molecules take part in it!!

 

  So pls  all (i am referring to everyone) stop writing things that you have found in an Internet article and didnt verified them through scientific books(probably googled and most of the time are miss leading or the original author dont know the subject well ) 

 

Btw there is collagen fibers  and not protein fibers in chemistry!! 

 

One of the benefits of chrome tanned leather is that is can be processed quickly. Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) is generally used. The acid creates carboxylates by deprotonating carboxylic acids on the side chains of the collagen. The trivalent chrome bonds with the resulting carboxylates on the collagen fibers (Erickson 1998). This bond is stronger than the bonds with the tannic acids and is the reason for the stability of the leather!

 

isoelectric point is the point of pH when you pass it the charge is changing from cationic(ionic negative) to inionic (ionic positive)!! If you are under isoelectric point you have to use inionic dye so the bond to be more easy -faster-and deeper in the hide! This does not effect preexisting bonds ! 

 

i didn't want to write for this subject  from start because its a Paine in the .... to translate from Greek to English chemistry terms and i am bored to hell hahaha :p 

 

So if you all have time pls read this study from Dr. Tereza Varnali (PHD etc)  of the  Department of Chemistry in the University (i know its 55 pages but it worth) to end this stupid argument once and for all(i am referring to all this from all sides) http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/09/08854.htm

 

ps. White vinegar helps to remove salt stains (cause of its ph) in the long run its not very good for your shoes if you soak them in it cause of the micro organisms in it (mostly bacteria and fungus ) !! To be safe use one witch is pasteurized (99% of micro organisms are dead)

 

ps2 . Sorry for the long post and hopped i helped a little bit!

 

ps3 (edit reason) the example of magnets its completely out of place!! this is force field physics  and not chemistry at all!! in chemistry there are bonds with the same polarity (covalent bond) 

post #16931 of 19069
I think everything you've just said is true, all of the leather chemistry texts I have read stress the importance of pH shifting as a part of the process to make leather. You're correct that the proteins will never go back to how they were, but they do repel the tannins and get stiff. They aren't reverting to how they were originally for several reasons in the process of tanning, that's not to say their state doesn't get altered into something different when shifted above their isoelectric point. There's a reason tanneries keep their leather acidic.

The magnet example was just for illustrative purposes, I didn't mean it literally.

My saying hydrogen bonds were weak I was talking relative to disulfide bonds, which are a form of covalent bond.
Edited by patrickBOOTH - 10/9/15 at 4:51pm
post #16932 of 19069
Recently bought some Alden Leather Defender for my shell cordovan boots. Supposedly it helps with water spotting, I assume by making the surface water repellant (like waterproofers for suede).

My question is: anyone know if this is bad for shell? I assume that, by applying it, I'll make it difficult (if not impossible) for the shell to take conditioners, but I'm not really quite convinced that shell soaks up cream conditioners anyway.

The bottle says the formula is also OK for calf, but that seems dicier than shell.

Anyone have thoughts?

(cc'ing @DWFII, @patrickBOOTH, @bengal-stripe, and @ntempleman since they may know)
post #16933 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


No, that was all me. Same with insinuating you had an inflamed vagina. I take full credit for that one also.

 

Ahh.  Too bad Travers didn't get Dubious Honored status otherwise he could stay in this thread throwing more insults.

post #16934 of 19069
Really not sure dieworkwear, I just wear my shell shoes when there's a 0% probability of rain.
post #16935 of 19069
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Ahh.  Too bad Travers didn't get Dubious Honored status otherwise he could stay in this thread throwing more insults.
It's got nothing to do with my status, it has to do with the fact that you are, indeed a douchebag. The insults are warranted. I'm a firm believer that some people just really need to be told.

Maybe if you handle yourself like benhour and not an insufferable ass when you put forth your opinions and research I would have to call you out in such a manner.
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