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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.** - Page 1127

post #16891 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

It works, but why?  Leeds is finished leather with a protective top coat AFAIK.  On the other hand, if its some unfinished leather/crust leather, it could help.

On the other hand, the effectiveness of water protector really depends on the severity of rain fall expected.  They were absolutely useless in monsoons.

I would worry more about the rain if its leather sole; works in light rain, but water will sip into the insole if its heavy enough.

It does have a leather sole. With a topy by now since I had them on in the last rain here and it wasn't so nice. I already sprayed the bit of sole left between the topy and the rubber heel but wanted to wait with the upper. My walnut Leeds looked pretty soaked in and around the toe area and around the welt (walked through grass in a park) and my foot felt damp from below.

The shoes just dried out naturally and are fine obviously but since I'm going on a trip ... don't want to have to put on half dried shoes the next day.
post #16892 of 19061
Possible food for thought?

It is perhaps unfortunate that disagreements break out in forums such as this one. But not uncommon. Not even rare. Unless we are content to be clones of one another, people are bound to disagree. Some people...sometimes...are able to disagree respectfully and while making positive contributions. Some not so much. We are all uniquely different and bring different talents to the game.

But what is the alternative? Despite the lamentations, no one has come up with a viable solution short of repression. Not here, not on Facebook, not anywhere people gather to engage in conversation and to explore ideas. We can avoid talking to each other altogether; we can natter meaninglessly about meaningless stuff. We can even change the subject (which sometimes, if not often, works). But it's pretty naive to think disagreements are odd or even reprehensible.

Jumping into a conversation that one has not been involved in, with the intent...even if benign...to quell it, to control it, to reproach people for arguing or being "rude," only shifts the discussion from substance to pettiness. From the "what" to the "how." And ultimately, prolongs or makes such disagreements worse...if only because such kibitzing is itself rude.

Maybe the best thing to do is just get over it. It happens. Arguments break out and then they fade away. Let them, it's life.
post #16893 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Possible food for thought?

It is perhaps unfortunate that disagreements break out in forums such as this one. But not uncommon. Not even rare. Unless we are content to be clones of one another, people are bound to disagree. Some people...sometimes...are able to disagree respectfully and while making positive contributions. Some not so much. We are all uniquely different and bring different talents to the game.

But what is the alternative? Despite the lamentations, no one has come up with a viable solution short of repression. Not here, not on Facebook, not anywhere people gather to engage in conversation and to explore ideas. We can avoid talking to each other altogether; we can natter meaninglessly about meaningless stuff. We can even change the subject (which sometimes, if not often, works). But it's pretty naive to think disagreements are odd or even reprehensible.

Jumping into a conversation that one has not been involved in, with the intent...even if benign...to quell it, to control it, to reproach people for arguing or being "rude," only shifts the discussion from substance to pettiness. From the "what" to the "how." And ultimately, prolongs or makes such disagreements worse...if only because such kibitzing is itself rude.

Maybe the best thing to do is just get over it. It happens. Arguments break out and then they fade away. Let them, it's life.

 

I did say leave it please.

 

Im more than happy to continue a discussion about saddle soap and the findings of my ongoing investigation.

 

Interestingly I have had one response so far:

 

"Thank you for your question.

Saddle soap is indeed not the best product to apply to your shoes on a daily basis since it can dry out the leather a bit, but sometimes you don't have an option since you need something to clean off old shoe polish. Synthetic shoe polish for example can't be removed with just a gentle cleaning lotion. You have in our opinion three option when it comes to cleaning products.

1. Cleaning lotions and creams: Saphir Lotion and Renovateur cream 
2. Leather soaps: Avel leather soap and Saddle soap
3. Chemical cleaners: Saphir Reno'Mat

The lotion is the best product for a daily cleaning session, but won't be the best for removing shoe polish from your shoes when doing a complete renovation of your shoes for example. We like to use Avel leather soap as a leather soap since it contains little to no glycerin. Saddle soap on the other hand contains around 90% glycerin. They are two very different leather soaps in the end of which the Saddle Soap the the more agressive cleaner of the two.

The most important thing to take care of after cleaning your shoes with a leather soap or chemical cleaner is making sure no product is left behind on the shoe. Rinse the shoe thoroughly with water and allow time to dry. Afterwards nourish the leather with a Renovateur cream to avoid the leather drying out.

I hope you have some use for my information. This is what we have learned over the years being in shoe care and actually using the products in our shoe care shop."

post #16894 of 19061
I was fine to leave it--a discussion that I was involved with among a number of other parties not including yourself--pages ago. Which is why I was so brief with you. Sorry if I hurt you feelings. It was not my intention.

As for saddle soap...I may be mistaken but drying of the leather was never an issue. I, for one, pointed out in post #16831, that saddle soaps contain fats which penetrate to the corium. I think...and pB can correct me if I'm wrong...that the issue with saddle soap is that it makes the fibers of the leather brittle because it fundamentaly "untans" the leather. (I'm a shoemaker, Jim, not a chemist.)

Beyond that, thank you for your efforts and for the information you provided above...even if it is a little beside-the-point.
post #16895 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I was fine to leave it--a discussion that I was involved with among a number of other parties not including yourself--pages ago. Which is why I was so brief with you. Sorry if I hurt you feelings. It was not my intention.

As for saddle soap...I may be mistaken but drying of the leather was never an issue. I, for one, pointed out in post #16831, that saddle soaps contain fats which penetrate to the corium. I think...and pB can correct me if I'm wrong...that the issue with saddle soap is that it makes the fibers of the leather brittle because it fundamentaly "untans" the leather. (I'm a shoemaker, Jim, not a chemist.)

Beyond that, thank you for your efforts and for the information you provided above...even if it is a little beside-the-point.

 

No offence but this IS a public forum, if you dont want others to interject then please PM the individuals that you wish to have a private ego party with.

 

No feelings hurt, just calling it as I see it.

 

Im just going to post whatever responses I get back whether they are "besides the point" or not, its still worth hearing what the manufacturers/stockists say whether the info is relatively useless. 

 

I understand the comment regards brittle fibers but I think an important thing to consider is how much exposure it would take to cause noticeable damage to the shoes. If with infrequent use there would not be any noticeable damage over the shoes lifespan then surely it isnt a problem to use it if it performs the function of cleaning well?

post #16896 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post
 

 

No offence but this IS a public forum, if you dont want others to interject then please PM the individuals that you wish to have a private ego party with.

 

No feelings hurt, just calling it as I see it.

 

Im just going to post whatever responses I get back whether they are "besides the point" or not, its still worth hearing what the manufacturers/stockists say whether the info is relatively useless. 

 

I understand the comment regards brittle fibers but I think an important thing to consider is how much exposure it would take to cause noticeable damage to the shoes. If with infrequent use there would not be any noticeable damage over the shoes lifespan then surely it isnt a problem to use it if it performs the function of cleaning well?

No offense, but if you havent taken the time to acquaint yourself with the contents of this thread and wish to interject your own gentle musings about the subjects under discussion, dont be alarmed when you are treated like a clown for bringing things up that have both already been discussed or are not interesting to the points at hand.

 

As to whether or not it is worth hearing the results of your investigation, that depends entirely on perspective.

post #16897 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post


I'm glad it worked. I have done it with shell in the past with success.


I applied it with a clean rag. I was surprised and happy when all the stains just came right out. But note from my pics that it takes much of the color away from the leather and you have to apply polish to achieve the color you want.

 

Also, loving the "discussion" going on right now :)

post #16898 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post

No offence but this IS a public forum, if you dont want others to interject then please PM the individuals that you wish to have a private ego party with.

I don't care whether others jump in or not. I just don't have time to deal with half a dozen dissenters or quibbles at the same time. I don't always feel compelled to respond to them...and that's my right.

Nor...as my many slightly philosophical or esoteric posts might suggest...do I mind if a discussion takes an abrupt or awkward turn. That's the nature of discussions in real life. None of us can control what the other person is going to say or how they respond. Those who try are the real "arrogant asses."
Quote:
I understand the comment regards brittle fibers but I think an important thing to consider is how much exposure it would take to cause noticeable damage to the shoes. If with infrequent use there would not be any noticeable damage over the shoes lifespan then surely it isnt a problem to use it if it performs the function of cleaning well?

If a product is "untanning" the leather and making it brittle, it surely will accelerate the shoes cracking esp. in the creases. I think I spoke to that in #16831 as well. pB could explain it better, I'm sure, but if I understand correctly, once the leather is untanned it's not going to revert to tanned anytime soon.

And any question of how long this process takes is essentially...and again...beside the point. If one buys a shoe expecting it to die, or a product that causes it to die, long before its time, one has to question whether the product (shoe or saddle soap) is a good investment at any price, esp. when there are other, better, alternatives.

It might even make the more thoughtful person question the wisdom in making such a purchase in the first place.

Because, as hard as it is for some to accept...and many fight it tooth and nail...that's the moral of the Creation story--once you know, you can never regain innocence.
post #16899 of 19061
Some people in this thread need to seriously get a life. It's a freaking message board talking about shoe shining.

It's comical that people start feuds and rip into each other. And if a noob comes posting helpful information he is reprimanded for not reading 236,462 posts or something about the same repetitive topic.

Shoe shining.

Sorry, but some of y'all could use a real hobby and some time away from this board.
post #16900 of 19061
Gee! facepalm.gif

No offense to anyone, but I'm so glad we got that cleared that up...esp. for people like pB who has over 30,000 posts here and is probably long since bored to death with stuffing worms in the mouths of helpless (apparently) baby birds.

Or those of us who were silly enough to actually believe that the subject of this thread was "Shoe Care"....of which "shine" is the least important element...IMO.

Maybe a little adventure...even if it's rhetorical...alleviates the repetitiousness? Who knows?
post #16901 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I don't care whether others jump in or not. I just don't have time to deal with half a dozen dissenters or quibbles at the same time. I don't always feel compelled to respond to them...and that's my right.

Nor...as my many slightly philosophical or esoteric posts might suggest...do I mind if a discussion takes an abrupt or awkward turn. That's the nature of discussions in real life. None of us can control what the other person is going to say or how they respond. Those who try are the real "arrogant asses."
If a product is "untanning" the leather and making it brittle, it surely will accelerate the shoes cracking esp. in the creases. I think I spoke to that in #16831 as well. pB could explain it better, I'm sure, but if I understand correctly, once the leather is untanned it's not going to revert to tanned anytime soon.

And any question of how long this process takes is essentially...and again...beside the point. If one buys a shoe expecting it to die, or a product that causes it to die, long before its time, one has to question whether the product (shoe or saddle soap) is a good investment at any price, esp. when there are other, better, alternatives.

It might even make the more thoughtful person question the wisdom in making such a purchase in the first place.

Because, as hard as it is for some to accept...and many fight it tooth and nail...that's the moral of the Creation story--once you know, you can never regain innocence.

If you don't care that other people jump in, if you don't have the time or the inclination to respond to us little people that need Molly coddling then don't respond, because surely it takes just as much effort to lambast us with your patronising attitude. That's a contradiction, but then again it doesn't surprise me that the person who said that they unsubscribed to this thread because they couldn't be bothered with it has now spent the last couple of days here.

As you correctly confirm this is a thread for shoe care and there will always be new people who don't have your infinite wisdom and are seeking help, or trying to help to the best of their ability, either help them or don't there's absolutely no need for the constant veiled insults, or ridicule them for not knowing as much in every post you make. We all had to start somewhere and once upon a time you were the know nothing that needed guidance, you didn't pop out of your mothers vagina a fully trained shoe smith.

Ok now were getting somewhere, "or a product that causes it to die" just because scientifically this product could damage the shoes does not mean it will, consider holding on to a hot radiator, you can hold it for so long before it burns you. If we apply the same logic to the product, then couldn't we say there is an amount of resistance in the shoe leather? I mean if saddle soap is so harmful then where are all the shoe owners with knackered shoes saying saddle soap killed them?

Given that you can only resole a shoe a certain amount of times then surely they have lifespan, I'm just being realistic not pessimistic.
post #16902 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I was fine to leave it--a discussion that I was involved with among a number of other parties not including yourself--pages ago. Which is why I was so brief with you. Sorry if I hurt you feelings. It was not my intention.

As for saddle soap...I may be mistaken but drying of the leather was never an issue. I, for one, pointed out in post #16831, that saddle soaps contain fats which penetrate to the corium. I think...and pB can correct me if I'm wrong...that the issue with saddle soap is that it makes the fibers of the leather brittle because it fundamentaly "untans" the leather. (I'm a shoemaker, Jim, not a chemist.)

Beyond that, thank you for your efforts and for the information you provided above...even if it is a little beside-the-point.

I am not a chemist either but i had some classes in the university (engineering) i dont think leather can bee "untanned" !! In molecular level tannins (vegetable or chrome)  bond with the proteins of the leather and this cant be undone ! The problem maybe with saddle soap is that it ll remove oils and fats from the leather, raising the pH and that ll dry out leather and make it brittle!

post #16903 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post

I am not a chemist either but i had some classes in the university (engineering) i dont think leather can bee "untanned" !! In molecular level tannins (vegetable or chrome)  bond with the proteins of the leather and this cant be undone ! The problem maybe with saddle soap is that it ll remove oils and fats from the leather, raising the pH and that ll dry out leather and make it brittle!

A reasoned and polite post. I'm shocked. Thank you in benhour I was losing faith in humanity.
post #16904 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemo79 View Post
 



The lotion is the best product for a daily cleaning session, but won't be the best for removing shoe polish from your shoes when doing a complete renovation of your shoes for example. We like to use Avel leather soap as a leather soap since it contains little to no glycerin. Saddle soap on the other hand contains around 90% glycerin. They are two very different leather soaps in the end of which the Saddle Soap the the more agressive cleaner of the two.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


The most important thing to take care of after cleaning your shoes with a leather soap or chemical cleaner is making sure no product is left behind on the shoe. Rinse the shoe thoroughly with water and allow time to dry. Afterwards nourish the leather with a Renovateur cream to avoid the leather drying out.

I hope you have some use for my information. This is what we have learned over the years being in shoe care and actually using the products in our shoe care shop."
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

I did say leave it please.

 

Im more than happy to continue a discussion about saddle soap and the findings of my ongoing investigation.

 

Interestingly I have had one response so far:

 

"Thank you for your question.

Saddle soap is indeed not the best product to apply to your shoes on a daily basis since it can dry out the leather a bit, but sometimes you don't have an option since you need something to clean off old shoe polish. Synthetic shoe polish for example can't be removed with just a gentle cleaning lotion. You have in our opinion three option when it comes to cleaning products.

1. Cleaning lotions and creams: Saphir Lotion and Renovateur cream 
2. Leather soaps: Avel leather soap and Saddle soap
3. Chemical cleaners: Saphir Reno'Mat

 

 

Underlined the problem with vendor rhetoric.  A lot of misinformation to slander their competitors product.  Not that much different from the Leather Care Company guy saying saddle soap is really bad and cracks your leather!  Buy our product instead!

 

MSDS of Joseph Lyddy Saddle Soap shows 64% water contain in their solid yellow soap thus impossible to contain around 90% glycerin as this vendor suggests.

 

p.s., info from Hanger Project?

post #16905 of 19061
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhour View Post
 

I am not a chemist either but i had some classes in the university (engineering) i dont think leather can bee "untanned" !! In molecular level tannins (vegetable or chrome)  bond with the proteins of the leather and this cant be undone ! The problem maybe with saddle soap is that it ll remove oils and fats from the leather, raising the pH and that ll dry out leather and make it brittle!

 

+1.  Its a chemical process that cannot be undone.

 

Saddle soap removes oil and fat, because it contains oil and fat? Meh.  Maybe, instead, it replenishes the oil and fat instead?

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